Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Sechs]

This is totaly fine since it is an MMO. I have only run ambuscade with 6 peoples, either form shell or via PUG. soloers can seriously fuck off for this instanced stuff

Maybe I'm not as "extreme" as Damane but I kinda agree with that.
It's good to give options to soloers, and I think this game currently has a lot already.
But ultimately this is a MMORPG, not an offline solo RPG. If you are so adamant on playing solo at all costs you might start to question why you're playing an MMOrpg.

Having the option of playing solo is cool, but the game should always try to promote group play. Making so you can access a specific content solo but so you have more reasons to do it with other people when possible sounds like a perfect solution on paper to me.
As far as SE's way to implement this concept, I guess time will tell after the may patch is released.

[NynJa]

SE could have opted to offer rewards based on clear time as well. Clear in less than 15 min: 1.1x multiplier. Clear in less than 10 min: 1.2x multiplier. Clear in less than 5 min: 1.4x multiplier.

I just hope SE learned from their first Ambuscade passthrough and wont make one chamber with one solo mob and another chamber with 4-6 mobs that can charmga, aka significantly more difficult, for a marginally better reward. How many people even did the orc fights?
Knowing SE, instead of making the "harder" fight slightly easier, they'll just ramp up the easier fight lol

[Kincard]

Knowing SE, instead of making the "harder" fight slightly easier, they'll just ramp up the easier fight lol

You say that like it would be a bad thing. The dragon is a snore to fight.

[NynJa]

and if I have to fight the thing 125 times just to get enough pts to max out 2 capes, 3 cinders and HMP's, then I'd rather a 5-10 min VD snoozer (depends if the dragon is being nice with its ele resistance choices).

You cant tell me that you believe the reward's for orcs compared to dragon makes sense when accounting for difficulty and average expected fight time.

[steellord]

Maybe I'm not as "extreme" as Damane but I kinda agree with that.
It's good to give options to soloers, and I think this game currently has a lot already.
But ultimately this is a MMORPG, not an offline solo RPG. If you are so adamant on playing solo at all costs you might start to question why you're playing an MMOrpg.

Having the option of playing solo is cool, but the game should always try to promote group play. Making so you can access a specific content solo but so you have more reasons to do it with other people when possible sounds like a perfect solution on paper to me.
As far as SE's way to implement this concept, I guess time will tell after the may patch is released.

You don't have to tailor content towards soloers of course, but if the content is tailored for a typical 119 PUG and some rdm/nin comes and solos should he really be forced into a group. I think it's on SE to create harder content he cannot solo in order to "promote group play", or create more pops so it's no issue

[Fwahm]

Soloers with trusts (or even without for some skilled players with certain jobs) are often better at killing stuff than many pick up groups, so if they made it too hard to solo, then they'd be leaving out a decent number of players (which is one of their main selling points for Ambuscade). If you make it harder to the point that even VE isn't soloable by the majority of decent soloers, then many players will be unable to clear it at all.

They could remove trusts from the event, but I doubt they'd be willing to do that now.

[Damane]

You don't have to tailor content towards soloers of course, but if the content is tailored for a typical 119 PUG and some rdm/nin comes and solos should he really be forced into a group. I think it's on SE to create harder content he cannot solo in order to "promote group play", or create more pops so it's no issue

you forget the part where that soloing rdm makes everyone else wait outside because he takes ages to clear the content solo with trusts. So yes that rdm/nin should be forced into a group. Albeit SE isnt forceing anyone into a group, they just giving an incentiv for people to team up, which is a huge difference.

Again this is an MMO

[Isiolia]

you forget the part where that soloing rdm makes everyone else wait outside because he takes ages to clear the content solo with trusts. So yes that rdm/nin should be forced into a group. Albeit SE isnt forceing anyone into a group, they just giving an incentiv for people to team up, which is a huge difference.

Again this is an MMO

Most of that is more the fault of SE's lack of ability to create instances for them, and lack of planning around that limitation when designing the content.

It is an MMO, but it's also one that - at least in its current state - is much more of a sandbox type of setup than many others on the market. That potential to go in and solo current content with trusts, or otherwise have flexible group size and make up, may be part of why that person is still subscribed and playing in the first place. Doesn't mean they never want to group up, but the option to do either is nice.

Really seems like something they could address by spreading congestion out, like by putting the monthly currencies on other content too.

[Sechs]

Doesn't mean they never want to group up, but the option to do either is nice.

I concur, but how does this conflict with the idea of giving more "benefit" to people who will group up?
You still get the option to solo if you want to?


@Nynja
Giving points based on clear time is nice but you can apply the same logic Fwahm said to that. That would promote solo play because, again, many players would clear faster than lame PUGs.
I don't think it's the best route to go if what you want to achieve is "leave the possibility to solo, but do your best to promote group play".

[Damane]

Most of that is more the fault of SE's lack of ability to create instances for them, and lack of planning around that limitation when designing the content.

It is an MMO, but it's also one that - at least in its current state - is much more of a sandbox type of setup than many others on the market. That potential to go in and solo current content with trusts, or otherwise have flexible group size and make up, may be part of why that person is still subscribed and playing in the first place. Doesn't mean they never want to group up, but the option to do either is nice.

Really seems like something they could address by spreading congestion out, like by putting the monthly currencies on other content too.

oh dont get me wrong i am totally fine with sizable groups np. i love that fact, but people should stop bitching about not getting bonuses becasue they play solo in an MMO. they adding a benefit to group play for ambuscade and people allready start bitching that they wont get the same benefits when going in solo. That is imho wrong. if you want the benefit too, then group up. I think SEs solution is good (well it depends on the rewards), but its the right direction

[NynJa]

I concur, but how does this conflict with the idea of giving more "benefit" to people who will group up?
You still get the option to solo if you want to?


@Nynja
Giving points based on clear time is nice but you can apply the same logic Fwahm said to that. That would promote solo play because, again, many players would clear faster than lame PUGs.
I don't think it's the best route to go if what you want to achieve is "leave the possibility to solo, but do your best to promote group play".

And for every 1 soloer who can kill D faster than "lame PUG's", there are 3-6 people from "Lame PUG's" who are clogging up VE/E solo because their friends arent on to do D and its "faster to get 50/75 marks instead of sitting in Mhaura doing nothing"

[Isiolia]

they adding a benefit to group play for ambuscade and people allready start bitching that they wont get the same benefits when going in solo. That is imho wrong. if you want the benefit too, then group up. I think SEs solution is good (well it depends on the rewards), but its the right direction

I think it remains to be seen as well. That said, I also don't think it'll really serve to address the basic problem with their design.

As it stands, it's already more beneficial to go with a group, provided that doing so means a higher difficulty fight and/or fighting faster, for more rewards over time. The same can be said for most content, at least up to the minimum group size it scales down to.

I suspect though, that the majority of people soloing Ambuscade are doing so out of preference (or necessity) rather than efficiency. Party rewards may steer some towards grouping up, but the continued demand (by design) will keep the others coming back to fill the instances anyway.

[arus2001]

Yeah, this one's more on SE than soloers.

Given I frequently play my games at off-peak times, I take mild offense to being told to fuck off because there aren't people around to do what I'd like to do at a given moment in time. XI simply gets it worse because there's no cross-server matching or readily available way to see who wants do what piece of content. Presuming, of course, you pass some arbitrary gear/job standard potential party members set.

Otherwise, I'm all for encouraging party play, but you don't do that with instancing. Stuff like the escha NMs or even WKRs are more where I would hope spontaneous parties to form, but doing such is also pretty clumsy since it requires manual invites/acceptances. Maybe they could take a page from Rift's book with public grouping options where a particular hot spot just allies up people with a click if they want in a group.

[pancakesandsex]

Yeah, this one's more on SE than soloers.

Given I frequently play my games at off-peak times, I take mild offense to being told to fuck off because there aren't people around to do what I'd like to do at a given moment in time. XI simply gets it worse because there's no cross-server matching or readily available way to see who wants do what piece of content. Presuming, of course, you pass some arbitrary gear/job standard potential party members set.

Otherwise, I'm all for encouraging party play, but you don't do that with instancing. Stuff like the escha NMs or even WKRs are more where I would hope spontaneous parties to form, but doing such is also pretty clumsy since it requires manual invites/acceptances. Maybe they could take a page from Rift's book with public grouping options where a particular hot spot just allies up people with a click if they want in a group.

It's not arbitrary if you can't hit the mob or you spend most of your time on the floor.

[arus2001]

Nah, I'm talking more toward the community's predilection of wanting only the best even if something not is still serviceable.

[Modoru]

Nah, I'm talking more toward the community's predilection of wanting only the best even if something not is still serviceable.

Tell that to the people who wouldn't invite my ninja for crawler parties 10 years ago because I didn't have a jujitsu gi at level 40

;_____;

[IceSylph]

Can also limit the event to 0 trusts unless your party size is 3+. I think that would help to alleviate congestion. I do like the suggestion that gives a bonus based on clear time.

[Karbuncle]

Well they're making a new currency for the even only gained when you're in a party with other humans

"Gallantry"

Rather its potent enough to encourage teaming up we'll see soon.

[Psion]

wouldnt be surprised if the new currency is used to buy the current months flavor of gears while accolades are used for "old" rewards. then they could just repeat each month, moving the previous months categories to be bought with accolades and adding the new months content to gallantry.

since everyone will naturally want the bestest and newest shinies out there, would still encourage parties but allow people to slowly solo old gear if they cant find a party for whatever reason.

[Silenka]

Given I frequently play my games at off-peak times, I take mild offense to being told to fuck off because there aren't people around to do what I'd like to do at a given moment in time. XI simply gets it worse because there's no cross-server matching or readily available way to see who wants do what piece of content.

Flag up and seacom? Stand by the fight area and ask for a party? Shout/yell for a party? Create a party and try to recruit? Join a ls full of people who play at off-peak hours? There are plenty of ways to manage it. I know that there aren't a lot of players on XI anymore but shit like XIV's duty finder is the cancer that has killed MMOs and any sense of community the newer ones could have had. Even if it's less convenient, keep that shit away from XI. The old-school way is to work for your gear and achievements by building connections with people and putting effort into clearing content. People could do it back during XI's heyday and they should still be able to do it now.

Instance congestion is one thing, but I honestly don't understand the "solo entitlement" response to it. You signed up to play an MMO but you want to do everything solo? It just doesn't make sense to me. But this mindset seems widespread enough that maybe that's why MMOs are dying off. Gamers too aspergers to break out of their shell and talk to each other anymore, or too lazy to bother making connections with others. XI at least has somewhat of an excuse for making nearly everything soloable, as it's essentially a dead game and the world populations are low. However, when they do roll out "new" high-level battle content that everyone on the server is doing, I don't expect it to be anything but group play. Why would I? It's an MMO.