Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Ophannus]

you saw this.................
where?

http://imgur.com/frxGGHK.png

Edit: Weird...why doesn't the [img][/img] tags work with imgur anymore?

[Trumpy]

for some reason any img tag doesnt seem to work at all lately.

[Byrthnoth]

You need to use https now. Also, good! I picked the right time to invest in WAR? >.>

Jaykay, unless they make 2H users not feed any TP and immune to AoE damage they won't address the issues keeping them out of endgame.

[Rooney]

I love how the very next post is "Thanks, but you missed the point"

[Damane]

I love how the very next post is "Thanks, but you missed the point"

well to be fair bringing them up to competitv level on CP PT would be allready good. atm CP is either MB dependant or specific skillchain step dependenden ( as in 3 Step with a very strong closer like SA Rudra Leaden Cloudsplittet etc)

[dasva]

You need to use https now. Also, good! I picked the right time to invest in WAR? >.>

Jaykay, unless they make 2H users not feed any TP and immune to AoE damage they won't address the issues keeping them out of endgame.

Naw war fine as is with fencer builds

[vagus]

My bravura still useless?

[Draylo]

Ragnarok coming back!

[dasva]

More like time for DD run with ergon/aeonic to shine!

[Modoru]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...243#post579243

http://imgur.com/frxGGHK.png

Edit: Weird...why doesn't the [img][/img] tags work with imgur anymore?

Thank you for the sources~
That's interesting, but as Rooney mentioned, they're still missing the point, hard.
...because as Byrth said, they're still not truly addressing the glaring issues with melee as a whole

but that's a topic for another day i'm sure

[Helldemon]

Thank you for the sources~
That's interesting, but as Rooney mentioned, they're still missing the point, hard.
...because as Byrth said, they're still not truly addressing the glaring issues with melee as a whole

but that's a topic for another day i'm sure

Well, if they made melee capable of outputting 2-3 times what a mage could that might be enough for people to go back to melee setups with support, haha.

Seriously though, I suggested 15% DT and DT II traits for all melee as a fix that would be easy and probably not to OP. Funny enough though someone posted awhile later to make it so AoE's do 30% less damage to the people not the direct target which is basically my suggestion but much more work from the dev's I would imagine. Though, if you are already wearing 50% DT when you get hit it would be better obviously.

[NynJa]

Didnt SE already implement something like that way back when? Or was it only something they were considering and never did it?

This was way back when Legion was a thing and everyone had to hide behind PD for every mob.

[Helldemon]

Not sure, it sounds familiar but I don't remember if it was ever put in.

[Malithar]

IIRC, wasn't it pets or avatars that it was applied to?

[Damane]

Didnt SE already implement something like that way back when? Or was it only something they were considering and never did it?

This was way back when Legion was a thing and everyone had to hide behind PD for every mob.

you are correct. This was allready implented during the VW and Walkif echoes era. The main target will allways take full dmg of Aoe moves /spells while the rest takes reduced dmg (30% isch prolly).
However the subject was never touched afterwards and i dont know how ilvl plays into this now/or was coded afterwards.
Remember there were alot of flaws at the beginning of ilvl stuff which got adressed later. This might have a flaw too but noone bothered/noticed it yet.

[Sechs]

They did implement it during the last Voidwatch phase iir but I honestly never saw a huge difference, people were still dying left and right without atmacites and temps.

DDs doing 2-3 the damage of Mages would be meaningless in a game where the damage is still capped at 99k, and there are still other problems:
1) Is it going to be a mixed setup with DDs + mages? That means more buffer, i.e. more people i.e. more hp for the target (thanks to the scaling system)
2) Even if DDs can survive the damage, there's still gotta be curebombing and lots of debuffing, that too requires additional party spaces (and additional variables/risks in the fight)
3) There's stuff that you can't cure no matter what if you're in range, a group of mages doesn't have this issue because they stand at distance, often exploiting the height difference trick, good luck doing that with DDs


So... even if they were capable to do more damage than mages (which is unlikely) that would hardly change a lot for the majority of fights, I'm afraid.
But for the rest of the content (Ambuscade, SR, other old content) it would be cool and maybe we'd see less of those "BLU onry" shouts even for easy stuff.
So, in that regard and under this perspective, it would be a positive change even if it would mean nothing for the current end-game activities.

[arus2001]

There are a number of ways they could tackle the melee issue. On the surface, accuracy concerns are one of the big ones. I suspect this'll be where the 2H buff focuses, but it still leaves 1H wanting.

As for AoEs, well...
1) As noted, revisit/improve the primary target and weaker to surrounding targets mechanic. So perhaps if a mob does a 2k AoE, the tank eats the 2k while, if 6 other people are in range, they'd get hit for maybe 350-400.
2) Put cooldowns on enemy TP moves. The most damaging stuff would obviously have the longer cooldowns, making recovery more feasible in-between.
3) Give all melee damage reduction traits. However, this creates issue for hybrid jobs, old as this argument may be.
4) Go through all ilvl armors and add -DRII reflective of their type. Heavy would get the most while mage stuff the least.
5) Just plain tweak mob stats to not be so bullshit, this includes evasion and damage output.
6) Have melee-triggered SCs wipe a mob's TP.
7) Up the Subtle Blow cap to 90-95% for physical hits.
8) Give RDM an enfeeble that significantly reduces a mob's fTP/damage value for a used skill.
9) Similar to 8, a debuff that increases the ready time of enemy TP moves, thus making them easier to stun or run away from.
10) Implement dash-like abilities for melee classes that can move them forward/backward 15-20 yards instantly, possibly nullifying damage mid-transit if not instant. Should probably have a 15s cooldown of their own. Further restricted to having weapons drawn.
11) Implement a guard option where you forego auto-attacking to take greatly reduced damage. Should only last like 3-5s tops, but would also have a short cooldown. Could spice this up by having Parry/Block/Guard offering some unique flavor. Using a WS or JA would otherwise cancel the guard.

...and probably more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. Yeah, some of it are things you'd possibly see in other MMOs like the guarding (Tera), but short of tweaking stats on some level, there's not much else we can do.

[Byrthnoth]

I favor options 6, 10, and 11 from that list. Debuffs are also a major issue (not just damage), and if they make things 2009-style meleeburnable we'll just run roughshod over them and nothing will be challenging. There needs to be an increase in the difficulty of the melee strategy, because engaging and hitting the same combination of WSs over and over isn't exactly rocket surgery.

[steellord]

back when they did the stat mod buff to 2H it made a real impact. They probably take a cursory glance at the situation, all of 3 drg drk and 13 sam online currently and none doing REM upgrade and go "oh i guess we need to buff their output again!"

if the devs actually played the game or at least *asked* those who did, they'd address the real problem

instead their next step will be to nerf sc mb again

[arus2001]

True, forgot about debuff spam. In this respect, hindering the MACC of mobs is probably an option, but then again, if SE set various TP moves to max accuracy, even reductions of 15% or so would mean shit.

Otherwise, I guess part of the issue is a lot of XI fights are just plain tank and spank while not being terribly mechanics driven. The fact we're now in an era where fights are constricted to small circles also hamstrings intuitive mechanic design. Simply toggling between vulnerabilities would get old. Charming players or outright disabling them with things like stuns or sleeps you can't remove also suck. Adds are an option, but not like with this Odin/Alex fight. Maybe something like if a mob gives a long duration amnesia, killing a certain add would wipe it. Though, at this point, I think it might be better to just plain change the Amnesia debuff to severely reduce WS damage and/or eliminate the possibility to trigger an SC if affected. Doomga and the like has always been a shit mechanic, especially if paralyze is in play, too. I'd rather SE just bite the bullet there and give WHM/SCH a guaranteed cure spell and make Hallowed Water work guaranteed on the consumable end.

Fears of melee zerging just goes back to old chatter on whether or not BRD/COR buffs should wipe if the granter leaves the party.