Dev Tracker: Discussion

[steellord]

actually fear of melee zerging has a lot to do with jobs like blm being excluded yet again. People get sick of FotM cyclical shit because not everyone has 4-5 functionally unique jobs that are well geared they also enjoy. Specifically it means all those blms have to cough up 300 mil+ and CP farm sam or w/e and allow their newly acquired gear to rot

The participation of backline dd has almost always obsoleted frontline and vice versa, except way back before blu and sch, a couple melee would meditate > run in to sc, or they'd chase a kited mob. Not very fulfilling

and now that we've reached 99k nukes, they'd have to nerf that or blu and sch sc AND some of the aoe/tp/debuff changes AND possibly removing hp scale (to give separate buffs from the blms), so i doubt very much this balance can be achieved. All we'll likely see is higher acc that few will make use of. Even if it allowed -50% dt full time against everything, it's hard to imagine melee being more than sc bitch every couple minutes

and all of this ignores the myriad other jobs that few ever use in PT (1h, smn, pup etc) and 2H that were rarely used even in melee zerg days (drg)

[dasva]

DDs doing 2-3 the damage of Mages would be meaningless in a game where the damage is still capped at 99k, and there are still other problemss.

I'm not really sure I follow this. If anything the dmg cap favors melees because they are continuously dealing dmg instead of just in spurts and in the case of death ever few minutes

[Sechs]

so i doubt very much this balance can be achieved.

Seconded.
Unless they nerf magic/MB at the same time but that would be pretty stupid and I'm afraid would create a massive uproar.


About the "2 hand fix" I'm a bit puzzled.
If it's just gonna be Accuracy, like a 1:1 conversion rate from DEX instead of the current 1:0.75, it would be pretty idiotic after they fixed that for 1h job a few months ago.
If it's gonna be an accuracy fix, they can't possibly leave 1h jobs behind. Any accuracy fix (which would be welcome) has to be for all jobs, not specific for 2H imho.

It's true 1H jobs tipically get more acc thanks to the +acc bonus present on weapons which you can dualwield, but that's another thing and fixing it by raising acc across the board for all 2H jobs wouldn't be a smart way to "fix" it imho.

[dasva]

They also need to stop forgetting h2h... which somehow always gets left out from both 2h and 1h adjustments. Also ranged... this pdif buff really hurt ranged a lot and it wasn't exactly in a great place to begin with

[Sechs]

H2H is like the unwanted child of 2H and 1H weapons =/
It's like a 2H weapon (keeps both your hands busy) but you can't equip grips, and has 1H formulas without being able to dualwield anything.
I don't even think H2H benefits from the 99% acc cap on main hand.

Altough to be fair I think the real problem of H2H, as ironic as it may seems, is that its WS didn't benefit as much as other weapons from the rehaul.
Vsmite isn't what it used to be anymore, and Raging Fists is good only at very high TP rates with a lot of buffs, and even in such a scenario it pales compared to what other WSs can do in even worse conditions.

I think I could arguably say similar things about Katana WSs.
It wouldn't solve all of MNK (and NIN? but nin has less problems to begin with) problems, but boosting some WSs a bit would be really welcome.

[Damane]

I dont think Damage is the problem, but rather uncondensed BASIC offensiv buffs from buffers. The main problem is that you build your pt according to the buffs you use, so in that regard what should happen is:

COR:
Condense chaos roll + wizards roll + best roll: condense into one roll
Condense hunters roll + warlocks roll + drachen roll: condense into one roll
Add a strong additional 2 min debuff to Quickdraw that lowers targets magic accuracy on a particular Element (potency of idris vex + attunement on one element).
Fill up:Add a 30 sec recast JA that reapplies the 2 rolls done by the cor to PT members with the same potency the current rolls are active on the cor. (to help rebuffing if dispels happen/rotation).

BRD:
Minuets: add an MAB and pet:attack+ buff onto the song additionally
Madrigal: add a M.acc and pet:accuracy+ buff on the song additionally + include prelude into this one
Honor March: add additional m.acc and mab buff to honor march

GEO:
Condense: Focus + precision into one bubble
Condense: Acumen + Fury into one bubble
condense: frailty + Malaise into one bubble
condense: languor + torpor into one bubble

After this change/enhance the circle effects on the melees main job (the subjob effect still stays nerfed the same), enhance the range the buff is given to 20+ feet:
+Circle effects become undispellable
+ -15% dmg taken goes over pdt/mdt cap
+ remove undead killer from pld ---> add to Monk
+change the +dmg effect from 15% to 30% (it should be a significant noticable boost)

Add addition circles/killer effects to:
- add Bird killer to RNG
- add Plantoid killer to WAR
- add Vermin killer to PUP
- add Beast killer to BST
- add Lizard killer to THF
- add Amorph killer to DNC
- add Aquan killer to COR
- add Humanoid/Bestmen killer to NIN
- add Avatar/Lumorian/Elemental killer to SMN

[Psion]

damage is definetly a problem for h2h users. My pup did 2500-3k pummels on the same mobs as my sparks of eminence blu did 6k+ CdC on, and my pup has better gear and a better weapon. Automaton weaponskills really need a boost as well.

[Sechs]

I dont think Damage is the problem, but rather uncondensed BASIC offensiv buffs from buffers.

If I understood what you meant, this is more the reason why BLU is favoured over other dd jobs, or in general why Job X is favored over job Y.
You need "less buffs", meaning you need less buffers, less party slots wasted (which you can use for something else) and ultimately also in the amount of buffs you can give your pt members.
For instance if your DDs won't need accuracy and haste because they have plenty to start with, you can give a lot more Attack (just making a silly example) with the result that your DDs will do much more damage compared to what other DDs would do with the same setup.

But I don't agree that H2H WS do not need at least a small damage buff. The damage of Katana and especially H2H WS is depressing compared to what most other weapons can do.

[Damane]

If I understood what you meant, this is more the reason why BLU is favoured over other dd jobs, or in general why Job X is favored over job Y.
You need "less buffs", meaning you need less buffers, less party slots wasted (which you can use for something else) and ultimately also in the amount of buffs you can give your pt members.
For instance if your DDs won't need accuracy and haste because they have plenty to start with, you can give a lot more Attack (just making a silly example) with the result that your DDs will do much more damage compared to what other DDs would do with the same setup.

But I don't agree that H2H WS do not need at least a small damage buff. The damage of Katana and especially H2H WS is depressing compared to what most other weapons can do.

the biggest problem why DD setup or pet setup or mage setup exclude each other, is because you cant have both without 38039203 amount of buffers. The idea behind is to condense the basic buffs for attack/mab/petattack accurac/m.acc/r.acc/pet.acc into one, which opens up more flexibility to PT setup.

On the other hand giving each frontline job a unique killer circle that provides defensiv buffs and a huge offensiv buff to encourage various setups melee setups (to avoid BLU only). I excludes BLU from the circle setups because they have allready alot of defensiv and offensiv buffs they can give to their pt via diffusion and/or unbridled learning.

after this you need to tweak jobs individually as you said (H2H and Katana lacking).

But this is the primary issue we have, that discourage setups that mix and mash melees + mages: needing a shitload of buffs.

[Byrthnoth]

I think they need to stop wasting time buffing 2H users and buff DNC instead. BLU is so much more popular than it!

[Psion]

...Please do not buff dnc. I still have nightmares about the terpi dnc i had to tank against in ambuscade dragon. they were holding back and still ripped hate within 15 seconds simply from weaponskills, and the times they went all out they were doing 29k+ PKs and pretty much solod it in like less than a minute. ;-;

[Byrthnoth]

...Please do not buff dnc. I still have nightmares about the terpi dnc i had to tank against in ambuscade dragon. they were holding back and still ripped hate within 15 seconds simply from weaponskills, and the times they went all out they were doing 29k+ PKs and pretty much solod it in like less than a minute. ;-;

Don't listen to this guy! Everyone play BLU!

Buff DNC!

[dasva]

Oh man final soa content. New attachments yay

[Treize Kordero]

I dont think Damage is the problem, but rather uncondensed BASIC offensiv buffs from buffers. The main problem is that you build your pt according to the buffs you use, so in that regard what should happen is:

COR:
Condense chaos roll + wizards roll + best roll: condense into one roll
Condense hunters roll + warlocks roll + drachen roll: condense into one roll
Add a strong additional 2 min debuff to Quickdraw that lowers targets magic accuracy on a particular Element (potency of idris vex + attunement on one element).
Fill up:Add a 30 sec recast JA that reapplies the 2 rolls done by the cor to PT members with the same potency the current rolls are active on the cor. (to help rebuffing if dispels happen/rotation).

BRD:
Minuets: add an MAB and pet:attack+ buff onto the song additionally
Madrigal: add a M.acc and pet:accuracy+ buff on the song additionally + include prelude into this one
Honor March: add additional m.acc and mab buff to honor march

GEO:
Condense: Focus + precision into one bubble
Condense: Acumen + Fury into one bubble
condense: frailty + Malaise into one bubble
condense: languor + torpor into one bubble

After this change/enhance the circle effects on the melees main job (the subjob effect still stays nerfed the same), enhance the range the buff is given to 20+ feet:
+Circle effects become undispellable
+ -15% dmg taken goes over pdt/mdt cap
+ remove undead killer from pld ---> add to Monk
+change the +dmg effect from 15% to 30% (it should be a significant noticable boost)

Add addition circles/killer effects to:
- add Bird killer to RNG
- add Plantoid killer to WAR
- add Vermin killer to PUP
- add Beast killer to BST
- add Lizard killer to THF
- add Amorph killer to DNC
- add Aquan killer to COR
- add Humanoid/Bestmen killer to NIN
- add Avatar/Lumorian/Elemental killer to SMN

I think is an excellent idea especially the condensed buff idea. Have you put this forward to SE? They probably shoot it down with some nonsense but I agree that this would make things better for party diversity.

...Please do not buff dnc. I still have nightmares about the terpi dnc i had to tank against in ambuscade dragon. they were holding back and still ripped hate within 15 seconds simply from weaponskills, and the times they went all out they were doing 29k+ PKs and pretty much solod it in like less than a minute. ;-;

Was this DNC a mithra named Cabbit by any chance? What you described seems very familiar LOL

---------------

DNCs need buffing too!! Too many people playing BLU we need more DNCs!!! DNC is life!!!

[Psion]

Actually, it was Cabbit. <_<;

[Treize Kordero]

Actually, it was Cabbit. <_<;

LOL that dude is insane with DNC

[jacobs67]

So who exactly wanted Apogee changed in that manner? I feel like that actually makes it worse. You could pre-load Apogee by activating it before using a bloodpact and then immediately use it again... now you have to use a bloodpact, then activate apogee, and then use a bloodpact. You end up losing seconds, and if you accidentally activate it when the timer is almost up it's completely wasted

[dasva]

So don't activate it when the timer is almost up? Pretty sure this was there way of making it so you could double both ward and rage instead of just 1 or the other

[Tarage]

So who exactly wanted Apogee changed in that manner? I feel like that actually makes it worse. You could pre-load Apogee by activating it before using a bloodpact and then immediately use it again... now you have to use a bloodpact, then activate apogee, and then use a bloodpact. You end up losing seconds, and if you accidentally activate it when the timer is almost up it's completely wasted

There are two schools of thought for me. The first is the scenario you described, loading up an extra BP. The problem though, is that if you've used it, and the situation changes, you can find yourself wishing you had spent it on the other type of BP, or even not at all if you find you don't need that second one. It requires a lot of forethought in situations where you might not know the outcome. On the other hand, this new method allows for a sort of panic button use. Did you just BP but you suddenly need to do another one you weren't expecting? Did your attack miss? Do you need to stun a second time because your first stun missed or the enemy decided to do another move that needs to be stunned? You can now do that. It's reactionary rather than planning. There are merits for both sides, and I think SE is offsetting it by allowing it to work on both types of BP as well as removing the extra MP cost, which makes the latter far superior to the former and more easily useable by the common SMN.

[Prothescar]

"player testing is unreliable"

lol ok