Dev Tracker: Discussion

[Damane]

Maybe PUP as a combination tank+DD, but (barring an unannounced buff) I've never been more convinced of MNK's uselessness.

wasnt HtH recently buffed or am i missing something? oO
or was the buff just neglectable

[frodnonnag]

wasnt HtH recently buffed or am i missing something? oO
or was the buff just neglectable

It was pretty negligible, leaving mnk neglectable.

SMN will probably do damn good on it now that volt strike is hilariously broken. Shame that it'll probably be V2 and not be worth profit farming.

[Sechs]

wasnt HtH recently buffed or am i missing something? oO
or was the buff just neglectable

There were two buffs:
1) Smite job trait (attack % bonus) got doubled. This affected all jobs who benefit from Smite, MNK included. MNK originally had 7% from smite, now it's 15%
2) H2H pDIF cap. The max damage cap of H2H got raised. It's now higher than 1H weapons but lower than 2H weapons. If I recall it's the same as Markmanship cap.


1 is nice in situations where MNK is not fully buffed and completely useless when you're att capped (hello bolster idris Frailty + Dia2). Either way it hardly provides a meaningful change
2 is also nice but it only affects you when you're completely buffed and even then, it hardly matters


I mean these buffs provide a small buff to MNK overall damage but it's hardly a big change. What MNK needs is a small boost to some of its WS. Melee damage was "okaysh" even before these buffs, and melee damage is hardly relevant these days anyway, most of the damage come from WS and SCs, not white damage.

[Ilian]

Maybe PUP as a combination tank+DD

PUP as strictly DD would be much better. If it turns out to be anything like Belphegor, it would be a good idea to have a light skillchain approach with automatons closing (Bone Crusher of course).

[dasva]

So newest dev note seems to dispel this whole ilvl raising rumor but might want to light the Kincard signal to be sure

[Sechs]

Wish SE would tell us the full list of this mythical number of pet stats they added to Animator.
Considering Magic Accuracy, Magic Defense Bonus, Magic Attack Bonus and Magic Evasion are either lacking or give incredibly low numbers, we have:

1) All stats+ (it's a single slot)
2) Eva+
3) Acc+
4) Racc+
5) Att+
6) Ratt+

What else? Defense maybe?
Doesn't really seem that big of a list to me, there are player items with more stats.
Once again: silly excuse/lie?

[Byrthnoth]

Can't you check most of those using /checkparam?

[Toth]

Can't you check most of those using /checkparam?

Yeah, just switch animators and see with /checkparam <automaton>.

[Manque]

Narf

[Nyarlko]

Wish SE would tell us the full list of this mythical number of pet stats they added to Animator.
Considering Magic Accuracy, Magic Defense Bonus, Magic Attack Bonus and Magic Evasion are either lacking or give incredibly low numbers, we have:

1) All stats+ (it's a single slot)
2) Eva+
3) Acc+
4) Racc+
5) Att+
6) Ratt+

What else? Defense maybe?
Doesn't really seem that big of a list to me, there are player items with more stats.
Once again: silly excuse/lie?

I was under the impression that ilvl pets and "Pet: Lvl +1" bonuses only increase base attributes and the derived stat increases came from that.. Or do we know that they don't match up to each other so there has to be direct atk/acc/etc bonuses as well?

[Sechs]

Can't you check most of those using /checkparam?

Yeah! But that's not what I meant.
I meant to say it doesn't seem to me that there are so many stats in there that they can't add more, considering there is basically no hidden stat that we don't know of.
Animators do not add mdb, mab, meva or macc for instance, which is quite a problem for mage automatons as me, Trulusia and others showed.

Unlike bst pets and avatars, automatons do not get additional levels from animators, just rough stats. Which means no change for level adjustment formulas. In a scenario like this you should be adding ALL stats, if you miss some important ones it's a mess, and it's exactly the issue with automatons and spells

[Falkirk]

Unlike bst pets and avatars, automatons do not get additional levels from animators, just rough stats. Which means no change for level adjustment formulas.

iLvl BST pets are level 99 with stats thrown on top.

[dasva]

Animators do not add mdb, mab, meva or macc for instance, which is quite a problem for mage automatons as me, Trulusia and others showed.

Well normally mdb and mab don't increase with lvl. However meva/macc normally and definitely do with automatons. It's appears not as much as players with full ilvl gear (but that's pretty hard to judge given how we gear) or as much as they did preilvl but if it was merely what was gained from +70 base stat it'd be quite noticeable as even eps would be hard to land anything without macc attachments/gear. I'd imagine it was probably somewhat similar to ilvl weapons and such. Not giving anywhere near enough acc/macc on their own and then meant to be made up with pet stats on other ilvl pieces. The problem is while players can get huge amounts of macc, mab and mbb at the same time on each piece pet jobs don't even get the option of mbb and end up more or less having to choose between mab and macc. Well except smn for some reason they get gear that can have decent amounts of mab + macc or acc+att... with bp dmg as well. Or on anything halfway strong choosing between landing your magic or trying to deal real dmg. This is further compounded by SEs apparent thought of oh just use attachments to make up the difference.... but since almost all the casting related attachments are on ice you just end up with the same choice again. Imagine if blms could only wear mab or macc pieces how ridiculously lower their dmg would be going full macc and how they wouldn't land shit going full dmg.

Main reason this hasn't kicked up such a big fuss is most people don't use the mage frames. And for meleeing you can focus on just acc and ignore attack especially with attuner and well party support using def down or the huge gains from beast roll and then target marker similarly lets you ignore a lot of the mobs evasion. But there aren't attachments like that for magic nor is puppet roll as powerful and if you want to lower mdb pretty much need to get a geo

[dasva]

I was under the impression that ilvl pets and "Pet: Lvl +1" bonuses only increase base attributes and the derived stat increases came from that.. Or do we know that they don't match up to each other so there has to be direct atk/acc/etc bonuses as well?

You can see by checkparam it doesn't line up. Don't remember if other pets were tested but autos you can see they get +70 base stat. And no way +35 acc would allow an otherwise 99 be able to hit like you'd expect something of ilvl 119. Even within an ilvl the checkparam stats vary in ways not related to base stats. Like for example the SU Z items and the HTBF items both give same base stats and ilvl but given decently different checkparam stats. The crafted ones are even weirder and each stat gains a different amount compared to the other ilvl 119 compared to how much the base stat should be changing

But some hidden ones are pretty obviously aren't getting their own bonuses or not as much as they should. One of the easiest to see is melee dmg. Player base dmg has dependent on weapon type has increased insane amounts iirc double in some cases and with it the melee dmg has gone up quite a bit. Meanwhile have your pet melee a lvl 0 at 99 and 120+. You'll get like a 10% difference I think which corresponds to what you'd expect from the stats

[dasva]

Hmmm looks like devs considering making ambuscade vouchers permanent reward. I'm mostly amused how people weren't crying that much about gear cycling out after 2 months until we got vouchers that gave us an extra chance.

[Sechs]

iLvl BST pets are level 99 with stats thrown on top.

I thought their level exceeded 99 with the right setup? I haven't been playing BST since Reforged relic came out. Did something change or have things always been like this? How can they stick their debuffs from Ready moves without specific level correction bonus? Just adding huge amounts of INT/MND wouldn't be enough and there's not enough macc gear either.

I mean, you're arguably the most knowledgeable player in the world about BST so it's not like I'm doubting you, but I'd love more details on the thing!


@Dasva
I didn't test Meva myself, other people did and reported that Automatons were showing some strangely low Meva values.
I did some tests (together with other people) about Macc though, and unlike all other stats which get directly boosted by a decent amount by Animators (and gifts), Macc receives virtually nothing.
If Animators do give Macc, it's a really really small amount, nowhere comparable to the amount they get for the other stats.
When you compare to players I don't think we need to take into account gear slots. Even naked with just weapon one of my mage jobs @ 1200 JPs is still performing incredibly better than my Spiritreaver Automaton is. And I'm talking about Apex mobs but I got similar results (of course better) even on mandies outside of Adoulin.
You can read the full tests we made on... FFXIAH I think?
Basically the sum of it all is that either Animators do not give Macc to Automatons at all (aside from the indirect macc you get from INT and MND) or if they do, it's a really really negligible amount.

Which brings us back to the thing I was talking a few posts ago with Byrth. I'd love for SE to give us the full amount and values of stats an Animator gives, because that way we'd be able to tell which "hidden" stats are present, if at all. I'm kinda skeptic there's any to be honest.

[Falkirk]

I thought their level exceeded 99 with the right setup?

They've always been level 99, similar to automatons. Equipping an iLvl Axe in the main hand simply increases the pet's stats.

How can they stick their debuffs from Ready moves without specific level correction bonus? Just adding huge amounts of INT/MND wouldn't be enough and there's not enough macc gear either.

We've been lamenting the poor Magic Accuracy of BST pets for the past couple years. All of their magic accuracy comes from the iLvl INT bonuses, as you've surmised.

Landing additional effects (like DEF- from Sweeping Gouge) is owed mostly to the spammy nature of modern BST gameplay: persistent usage eventually applies the debuff. You're right that it has to pass a Magic Accuracy check and will often fail against high level targets without appropriate support. So, in that regard, we're in the same boat with automatons.

Maybe the topic doesn't come up much because - similar to Spiritreaver frames - magical Ready moves and pet debuffs aren't common in any major endgame scenario.

[Sechs]

So Falk sorry for the OT, but I guess the same applies to the effect of the reforged Relic hands? I thought they allowed to break the cap on the level of the pet (according on the maximum available cap of the jug and according to your merits distribution etc)

Was this "level still 99" something that got added after they introduced the "level changes according to MH weapon" feature? If so I guess this applies only to the newer jugs, which arguably are the only relevant ones I suppose. Back then we BSTs used different jugs as the cool adoulin ones still didn't exist lol

[Fwahm]

Pet levels above 99 are the same as ilvl above 99; we're not actually ever above 99, and it's just SE's shorthand for the types of stat buffs given by each item that "boosts" a pet's level.

Also, as far as I know, the only monster level correction mechanics involve PDIF (a bonus to the higher leveled one, and a penalty to the lower leveled one) and evasion (a bonus to the higher leveled one), anyway. If there's a level correction component to MACC/MEVA, I don't think anyone has ever tested it.

[jacobs67]

There is no such thing as any playable character in the game above 99, all characters and pets are 99 and the iLVL statvomit just simulates the stats you would gain from those levels, including magic accuracy for pets, otherwise it would be hard for a summon or an automaton to even land a single nuke on a mandragora outside Adoulin with the base macc of a 99 pet and they would never be able to resist anything with their base magic evasion. The items that give things like "Avatar level +1" just give extra statvomit (base stats, attack, accuracy, defense, evasion, magic accuracy, magic evasion) and yes it gives those alongside whatever increases STR, DEX, VIT, AGI, INT/MND give to those stats