Wealth Inequality: the 1:12 Initiative in Switzerland

[isladar]

Funny to see this poping up here. Anyway, it won't stand a chance. There have been some non-representative surveys recently and less than 30% said yes. From a political parties view, only left-winged Socialist and Green party supporters are mostly behind it and that's still shaky. Been a hot topic here, most of my friends are against it too and no, non of them is a CEO.

The problem with this whole Initiative is, that it's looking at the wrong end. Instead of cutting the top and loosing millions of tax revenue / people just moving abroad, raise the minimum wage. As much as I have to scold the Initiators for another unrealistic approach to an important issue, some of the oppositions reasoning is even worse, like: "We can't just pay football player xy 100k less because of our janitors salary!"

So I've seen a couple other people mention the minimum wage thing, like either raising everyone to a flat 4k euro a month, or raising their hourly to something that would work out to about the same. Do you know if this is actually a thing happening?

[RKenshin]

Wouldn't using something like the median worker's salary be a more realistic, passable bill? Feel like it would make more sense for a number of other reasons too, if this was ever to be taken seriously.

[Cliron]

Moving on from the "instead of having the janitor being an employee and just outsourcing from another company where the 1:12 rule would apply"

Could this paradigm be altered slightly to protect the current status quo?

Take this example: Imagine Cliron's Emporium where there is a range of employees of various incomes. The lowest being X and the highest being 36X.

If this new initiative were to occur, whats to stop me from breaking up Cliron's Emporium into separate tiered companies? Such that there be X to 12X are in company A; 13X-24X are in company B and 25X-36X are in company C?

This is overly simplified, and the definition of income (whether it includes stock etc) and the restrictions on where the income is going to and coming from (e.g. foreign nationals from inside and outside the EU?) will be important.

The amount of effort companies go to take advantage of minor tax incentives/ loop holes makes me think that such a drastic change in company structure wouldn't deter people from such a move to protect the most senior staff.

[isladar]

I think those are valid concerns, but also citing possible ways to cheat the system as a reason to not address problems like these is kind of self-defeating. Every kind of financial regulation has an entire industry designed to try and circumvent it. I don't think the problem is regulation in that case, the problem is the cheating.

[hey]

I think those are valid concerns, but also citing possible ways to cheat the system as a reason to not address problems like these is kind of self-defeating. Every kind of financial regulation has an entire industry designed to try and circumvent it. I don't think the problem is regulation in that case, the problem is the cheating.

There's no point in doing something if it's so trivial to circumvent that no one is going to be affected though.

[isladar]

Maybe? I don't know. Lots of laws get put into effect and then amended to work better in light of real-world conditions afterwards. I don't know that waiting for perfect solutions right off the bat really helps in a practical sense.

If you're saying that the proposal should have more teeth, though, then yes I'm 100% on board with that, haha.

[Xantavia]

I don't really understand this. Why does someone running a small company that hires exclusively highly skilled workers (who get paid a lot) deserve to be paid more than someone runs the exact same company, but also needed to hire a janitor? What sense does it make to then pay that janitor 3x what they could make at literally any other job, just to avoid them dragging down others' max salary?

It's always bothered me when the implication is that janitors shouldn't be paid that much. When I think janitor, I think the guy who has to clean all the nasty shit up (off the walls, floor and ceiling because somebody decided to do some fecal fingerpainting). I would never be able to deal with disgusting biological messes and don't have any real objections to them getting paid a decent wage.

[Callisto]

I think it's more the lack of 'skill' taken to do it, yes it's a shitty(PUNZ LOL) job but the mental aptitude and hand-eye coordination needed to do it aren't exactly on the level with other higher-paid jobs. While CEO compensation is definitely out of line compared to other positions, I think a lot of people do underestimate some of the value that the good ones actually provide their companies, and also omit that many times it's someone who has put in a shitload of time and work moving up the ranks to get there.

[isladar]

Skill isn't the only criteria though; shouldn't hard work count? If pay were a non-factor, I'd sure as fuck rather be CEO than a janitor.

[zoobernut]

Skill isn't the only criteria though; shouldn't hard work count? If pay were a non-factor, I'd sure as fuck rather be CEO than a janitor.

The issue with this is that there are a lot of industries (particularly creative/art based ones) where no one cares how hard you worked all they care about is the end product.

I think measures like this will definitely help dig us out of the hole that the industrial revolution created but I think ultimately in order to find sustainable balance our society needs to find a balance between huge corporations and smaller more localized businesses.

[isladar]

Fuckin' amen to that.

I do wish there were support for the arts in the States, though. There's just the problem that no one wants to pay for art if they don't get to dictate the end result, pretty much exactly as you said. Of course it does bring to mind this:



Oh, Canada.

[zoobernut]

It makes me so sad that art isn't supported more in the States but at the same time creativity is one of the most in demand skills today (after multilingualism). I won't go into more detail because issues with art industries across the world is a huge topic that we could start an entire thread about.

I will just say that I am really tired of people asking me for photography or photoshop work for free.

[isladar]

hey man your really good at art can you draw my character it wont take long you are so good omg i could never be good at art pls???

Also

I won't go into more detail because issues with art industries across the world is a huge topic that we could start an entire thread about.

I'd be interested if you ever feel like typing up an OP!

[Mojo]

I think it's more the lack of 'skill' taken to do it, yes it's a shitty(PUNZ LOL) job but the mental aptitude and hand-eye coordination needed to do it aren't exactly on the level with other higher-paid jobs. While CEO compensation is definitely out of line compared to other positions, I think a lot of people do underestimate some of the value that the good ones actually provide their companies, and also omit that many times it's someone who has put in a shitload of time and work moving up the ranks to get there.

This is not limited to CEOs although they seem to be the only ones compensated for it. In all of the companies I've worked for, there are always heros. The outstanding individuals who often lead those working around them or who otherwise come up with innovations that the company relies on for success. They don't have million dollar salaries, yet the company would fall apart if it weren't for them.

[hey]

Maybe? I don't know. Lots of laws get put into effect and then amended to work better in light of real-world conditions afterwards. I don't know that waiting for perfect solutions right off the bat really helps in a practical sense.

If you're saying that the proposal should have more teeth, though, then yes I'm 100% on board with that, haha.

Well, i'm not saying we need a perfect solution before doing anything. Of course it's always possible to go back and revise things later. But if it's as trivial to bypass as this would appear to be, then it should probably be thought through more to start with.

It's always bothered me when the implication is that janitors shouldn't be paid that much. When I think janitor, I think the guy who has to clean all the nasty shit up (off the walls, floor and ceiling because somebody decided to do some fecal fingerpainting). I would never be able to deal with disgusting biological messes and don't have any real objections to them getting paid a decent wage.

As much as who? I'm sorry, but janitors don't deserve to be paid as much as doctors. Being paid a decent wage can easily mean they are paid 1/3 of everyone else in the building.

[Xantavia]

As much as who? I'm sorry, but janitors don't deserve to be paid as much as doctors. Being paid a decent wage can easily mean they are paid 1/3 of everyone else in the building.

The question is, would you do those "low skill" jobs for the amount they get paid? Forget your degrees, forget your connections, and just ask yourself if you would be willing to do that work for what is most likely a poverty wage. If the answer is no, then it means they aren't getting paid enough. Nobody is saying they should get as much as a doctor, but would you be ok with being a janitor or orderly that doctor's hospital?

[thetruepandagod]

The question is, would you do those "low skill" jobs for the amount they get paid? Forget your degrees, forget your connections, and just ask yourself if you would be willing to do that work for what is most likely a poverty wage. If the answer is no, then it means they aren't getting paid enough. Nobody is saying they should get as much as a doctor, but would you be ok with being a janitor or orderly that doctor's hospital?

The question is not whether or no hey would do it, the question is are there people out there willing to do it and the answer is yes. Also "forget your degrees" jesus christ this is idiotic, a degree is relatively important when it comes to what job you can or cannot get and rightfully so in some cases, doctor being one of them. Janitors may not get paid a lot, but you also need nothing more than a basic grasp of the language of your country and physical mobility, the same can not be said of a doctor. If a person doesn't like being a janitor or it's salary there are other jobs that require an equal level of skills that potentially pay better, ie: waiter.

[Tajin]

Holy shit you people are scary.

[isladar]

Unfortunately the "free market" solution to wages results in people doing wretched jobs for shit pay that they can't live on, so they get multiple shit jobs, locking other people out of employment. If people who didn't like their jobs could just get a different better one I'm pretty sure we change this subforum to Post Your Favorite Puppy Gif.

[hey]

The question is, would you do those "low skill" jobs for the amount they get paid? Forget your degrees, forget your connections, and just ask yourself if you would be willing to do that work for what is most likely a poverty wage. If the answer is no, then it means they aren't getting paid enough. Nobody is saying they should get as much as a doctor, but would you be ok with being a janitor or orderly that doctor's hospital?

That would be a step up for me. If i could, i would.