Arnie Duncan: "White women are angry, run for the hills" Common-Core education crap.

[Byrthnoth]

Ultimately there should be standard things that children learn by specific points. Ideally the classes would be far ahead of those things. For instance, I feel a graduation test assessing Algebra would be fair, because if you do not know algebra by the time you graduate your school system has done you a disservice. Everyone can benefit from a little basic math, and thus schools should be required to teach everyone it.

However, attaching fiscal incentives for school systems (who then attach the incentives to teachers using the student by student results) is just bad implementation. If there is a shit teacher in the math department, all the other math teachers will know it. You do not need to see the kid's test scores and give their current teachers undeserved punishments. Just report average scores for each subject by school in a public way.

[Ksandra]

because if you do not know algebra by the time you graduate your school system has done you a disservice.

Did you really think about this before posting?

Do you think a school has done a disservice if a kid with Down's didn't know algebra?

What about the kid who just came to the US 6 months ago?

I think a tracking progress for all children to see they are improving at a rate in correlation to their ZPD would be the most I would be ok with. Anything standardized and you are going to fuck over those who don't have the mental capacity you assume every kid has.

[Byrthnoth]

My bad. I was talking about the 99% of kids that aren't literally retarded, don't know the language, etc. Also, you may notice that I detached the punishments from the results.

[Ksandra]

Also, you may notice that I detached the punishments from the results.

You said schools should be required to teach everyone algebra. Do you not realize this doesn't help the core standard situation at all? You are basically promoting exactly what caused the core standards to exist in the first place. (coming up with what you assume every kid should know, without even knowing these kids)

[edit] you do realize forcing a kid who can't handle algebra to learn algebra is a punishment?

[archibaldcrane]

Right before my dad retired as a high school math teacher, the Madison school district decided that all incoming freshmen had to take Algebra, in order to make them more prepared for college.

Needless to say, it definitely hastened his early retirement. Putting kids who can't do fractions into Algebra is a disaster.

[Acevalefor]

Putting kids who can't do fractions into Algebra is a disaster.

Related: I just started my prerequisites for the aviation program at a local college. One of those classes is college algebra...since it's been 15 years since I have taken any math class. I was shocked at what we were "learning" in a COLLEGE course. We started the class learning how to convert fractions to decimals along with basic fraction addition/subtraction/multiplication/division. Then we learned order of operation. Then we learned about negative numbers. Then we learned about number lines. Then we learned percentages. Then we moved on to STORY PROBLEMS! It's an easy A but it's also ridiculous that I am in a college level course that considers integers and fractions to be a good part of the class curriculum. This course is not even considered a remedial course.

The placement testing doesn't reflect the course level requirements at all. I had a little trouble with exponents and geometry and that somehow puts me in a basic 6th grade math class disguised as a college class....

[ringthree]

Related: I just started my prerequisites for the aviation program at a local college. One of those classes is college algebra...since it's been 15 years since I have taken any math class. I was shocked at what we were "learning" in a COLLEGE course. We started the class learning how to convert fractions to decimals along with basic fraction addition/subtraction/multiplication/division. Then we learned order of operation. Then we learned about negative numbers. Then we learned about number lines. Then we learned percentages. Then we moved on to STORY PROBLEMS! It's an easy A but it's also ridiculous that I am in a college level course that considers integers and fractions to be a good part of the class curriculum. This course is not even considered a remedial course.

The placement testing doesn't reflect the course level requirements at all. I had a little trouble with exponents and geometry and that somehow puts me in a basic 6th grade math class disguised as a college class....

Government and IR majors have to have a way to get through college, ok? Fuck off.

My math class was worse than that. And I was in Calculus in High School.

[Mojo]

I'm with Byrthnoth on this one. Everyone can benefit from learning math and if you don't know algebra by the time you graduate high school the education system has failed you. I don't think putting students into an algebra class when they aren't prepared for it is a good idea. I would say that I have a decent understanding of math (A's in every class all the way up to PDEs) and I have spent a fair amount of time tutoring people on math. I feel like every time I see someone struggle with math, their hardships stem from a few specific things that come from a short list common to most people. It's kind of like watching a game of chess. If you understand the game, sometimes it's easier to see what's going on when you're watching someone else play than when you're playing yourself. I feel that way when I tutor math. People approach math in ways that get them through the class but leave them with no real understanding of what they've learned. They repeat this strategy up until a point where it's impractical or impossible to continue in math because of their lack of understanding of even the most fundamental concepts. The culture we live in doesn't help either. We promote the idea that math is for nerds or that you have to be 'smart' to understand math and that success is gauranteed. It's disheartening.

[RKenshin]

I'm a bit torn on this issue.

I don't agree with revolving a curriculum around testing (for the obvious flaws), nor do I think that everyone necessarily is meant to learn the same thing. I do however feel strongly against the idea of catering the system to the lowest denominators, just to be sure that no one feels left out, feels punished, or forced into something 'unfair.' There should definitely be some basic standards of expectations, but having a reward/punish system of budgeting/cuts based purely around test scores is definitely flawed.

[Blubbartron]

People in this thread, aside from Ksandra, seem to be under the reasonable assumption that you only go to normal school/classes if you aren't functionally retarded. Inclusion is great for the semi-retarded kids that are capable of more, but it does drag down the class as much as the class drags them up. I'm not a fan, personally.

[Ksandra]

People in this thread, aside from Ksandra, seem to be under the reasonable assumption that you only go to normal school/classes if you aren't functionally retarded. Inclusion is great for the semi-retarded kids that are capable of more, but it does drag down the class as much as the class drags them up. I'm not a fan, personally.

I am not being reasonable because of reality? idgi Every "normal" school as special ed classrooms. Denying that is being ignorant and unreasonable.


IF a kid is capable of learning Algebra and the school doesn't teach them it, then it is a disservice. IF a kid is not capable of learning Algebra, and the school teaches them at their ZPD level, it is NOT a disservice. And you know, it is very likely that every student in a school is capable. That does not mean you design the school system with that assumption.


You should never, ever, put all kids under the same bubble. The BEST service you can do for a child is to constantly teach them at their ZPD level, and every students' level is different.

The way you guys are thinking is exactly why we end up teaching to the lowest in the class because you gotta make sure everyone fits in the same bubble. What you guys are advocating is the core system without realizing it.

I honestly can't fathom why anyone would think one big bubble is better than putting everyone in their own appropriate bubble.


Inclusion has zero to do with what I am saying. If you say everyone you mean everyone. Whether they are learning it in the special needs room or in the regular classroom is irrelevant.


And I will shit fuck anyone who claims we should just not let kids who can't do algebra go to school.

[edit] By putting the bar lower by thinking "well everyone can learn algebra!" That means you are going to find that's the highest level that gets taught, effectively dumbing down the school system even further.

[RKenshin]

I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but I don't see how it's possible to only ever teach every student in the nation at their ZPD level (and never beyond that, or short of that).

In a perfect world, yes, that would definitely be the best scenario. But, what would you propose that wouldn't realistically require providing a personal teacher for every individual student in the nation? I skimmed through some of the posts, but I think that most here (Blubbatron included) agree that basing this all around a standardized test is bad, but at the same time still believe that there should be some sort of national education expectations (even if they had to be flexible).

I feel like these are almost two different discussions... one about the best policy for teaching kids on an individual scale, and another about the best policies that govern how we teach kids as a nation. Big difference between the two.

[Ksandra]

I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but I don't see how it's possible to only ever teach every student in the nation at their ZPD level (and never beyond that, or short of that).

In a perfect world, yes, that would definitely be the best scenario. But, what would you propose that wouldn't realistically require providing a personal teacher for every individual student in the nation? I skimmed through some of the posts, but I think that most here (Blubbatron included) agree that basing this all around a standardized test is bad, but at the same time still believe that there should be some sort of national education expectations (even if they had to be flexible).

I feel like these are almost two different discussions... one about the best policy for teaching kids on an individual scale, and another about the best policies that govern how we teach kids as a nation. Big difference between the two.

You can't teach everyone at their own, but that should be the goal. That is what the goal used to be. When I grew up you had levels for every class. (Our schools did colors, to separator 5 levels of high, medium, and lows). Now it's basically: normal and honors.

When you standardize everything on a national level, you lump everyone together to try and reach that level. This means the teacher has to focus harder on keeping the lowest kids above the level, and the higher kids get ignored since they passed the requirement.

State testing back when I was a kid was more about figuring out which classroom a kid should be in. Now it's about whether a teacher should get fired. And some in this thread think it should be whether the school "did a disservice". State testing doesn't know the kids, the teachers do.

If you want the nation to be involved it should be about the principal and the teachers pushing their kids where they should be pushed, with some national people that come in to check in that they aren't slacking. This also isn't perfect, but WAY better than the alternative.

When you say "everyone should know algebra" for some national statistics, what is going to keep a school with very very limited resources from stopping there so they can make sure every kid gets past that point?

You end up with core standards and dumbing down america with that logic.

[Tarage]

The amount of strawmen in this argument is ridiculous.

[notorious bum]

God, how many decades will it take for people to catch-up to the systemic dumbing-down of schools and corporatizing of education? What Ksandra is saying should be "common sense." Have we already forgotten that fraud Michelle Rhee, whom the media spammed non-stop, championing all the standardized testing, privatizing schools talking points?

[Ksandra]

God, how many decades will it take for people to catch-up to the systemic dumbing-down of schools and corporatizing of education? What Ksandra is saying should be "common sense." Have we already forgotten that fraud Michelle Rhee, whom the media spammed non-stop, championing all the standardized testing, privatizing schools talking points?

It is kinda scary that people think the education system is bad, yet they want to fix it by doing exactly what made it bad in the first place.

Honestly, a lot of "old school" ways weren't bad to begin with. The problem in education back in my day and earlier, was making sure kids in low-income schools were still receiving a good education. Yet the problem is, the political talking points were blaming the teachers instead of the fact that low-income areas = lower school budgets as well as less education (and resources) being taught/helped with in the home. Because no one wants to pay more money.

The other problem is about trying to help kids "catch up." The major downside to the level system was once someone was say in level 2, it's hard to get them to go faster than normal to hit a level 1 since he/she still needs to stick to the speed of everyone else in level 2.

Ideally, when the changes would have happened, budgets would have increased to allow for some in-between small groups with students who are capable of accelerating. Again though, that costs money. And we can't have that!

[BaneTheBrawler]

God, how many decades will it take for people to catch-up to the systemic dumbing-down of schools and corporatizing of education? What Ksandra is saying should be "common sense." Have we already forgotten that fraud Michelle Rhee, whom the media spammed non-stop, championing all the standardized testing, privatizing schools talking points?

no one is arguing with 'sandy, though. the extent of disagreement has been "that is unattainable"

[quannum]

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...uccess/250564/

get rid of private schools

This notion may seem difficult for an American to digest, but it's true. Only a small number of independent schools exist in Finland, and even they are all publicly financed. None is allowed to charge tuition fees. There are no private universities, either. This means that practically every person in Finland attends public school, whether for pre-K or a Ph.D.

get rid of the tests and teacher tracking

And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not compete." It's hard to think of a more un-American idea, but when it comes to education, Finland's success shows that the Finnish attitude might have merits. There are no lists of best schools or teachers in Finland. The main driver of education policy is not competition between teachers and between schools, but cooperation.

this won't happen, same reason everything is screwed up in usa.

[Ksandra]

no one is arguing with 'sandy, though. the extent of disagreement has been "that is unattainable"

No, they are advocating national standards, I am saying that's terrible.

What I am talking about it is not unattainable, it's what we used to do.

[Niiro]

In most other countries the stigmas associated with "public school" and "private school" are the complete opposite of what they are in the US.

That should tell you something, especially considering how low on the totem pole American students rank compared to other first world nations.