Warrior Fantasy XIV: 1.0 Strikes Back [WAR/MRD 2.1 Update Thread]

[Fojoop]

I wasn't referring to you at all, as I was referring to Wars who play War and disagree with the changes and not non-Wars who don't play War and disagree with the changes. Color me unsurprised that you don't understand the point of my post.

This game isn't so complex I need to level a job to 50 to understand it. A 50 warrior here, Kiarax, also said I was 100% right and you were 100% wrong earlier, so are you going to hide behind baseless insults to prove your points still?

Also old IB was a healing increase 99% of the time, Fojoop is absolutely right and you are doing it wrong holding on to stacks so often.

Why can't you have a discussion without throwing out baseless insults?

[Raldo]

Please hold your "omg this is too much" comments until after we actually know whether or not they intend to buff PLD a bit as well.

[Lucavi]

This game isn't so complex I need to level a job to 50 to understand it. A 50 warrior here, Kiarax, also said I was 100% right and you were 100% wrong earlier, so are you going to hide behind baseless insults to prove your points still?

It has absolutely nothing to do with baseless insults. For all of Kiarax's statements, even HE will not tank double dreadnauts, and he does not main tank Twintania in the early phases. Your attempts to hide behind his statements amount to nothing but cowardice and a refusal to arrive at your own conclusions based on personal experience and hard evidence.

It remains to be seen if he'll accept my request to tank them with all of his superior knowledge and all of his superior gear and post a vid so we can see how the best Warrior in the game stacks up to even an average Paladin. This should be done long before a non-War like yourself - with 0 knowledge of the reality of coil and the scaling discrepancies of Inner Beast - tries to come in here chiming about Warrior skill, lack of Warrior skill, or about what's good or bad for the future of the Job.

[Fojoop]

I do coil and lots of stuff in game with a Warrior and have seen what they are capable of. The difference between this Warrior and a random run of the mill warrior is like night and day, the class scales unbelievably well with skill and knowledge of the encounter. Hell, last night he received a compliment as we were helping friends with titan "You're the easiest tank I've ever had to heal on Titan, warriors aren't so bad".

I don't hide behind his statements, I just admit I don't have experience with Warrior and can't give you a full discussion, but what I can do is tell you they were not so far behind that they needed such huge sweeping changes, nor did they need their entire identity and playstyle taken away in name of balance. I can also relay what my Warrior friend tells me, so I have the basic idea of how more complex things are from the Warrior POV, but he can't be arsed to post here and doesn't care enough to.

People have cleared turn5 with warrior main tanks, I'm not sure what the point of your request is? The fact that Warriors can clear turn5 main tanking also shows they are not so far behind Paladins that they need buffed in such ways that people might start thinking Paladins are inferior and asking questionsl ike "Why bring a Paladin when we can bring a warrior?"

[kisada]

I don't understand the point of your post. I think warrior being buffed is nice, but they went over the top with buffs, making it better than Paladin in essentially every situation, and destroyed warrior's identity. Warrior is now Paladin +1 that uses a 2h Axe instead of Sword+Shield.

I think defiance giving 20% healing increase passively would've balanced warrior and paladin pretty well.

i agree that the job is looking like it'll become pretty OP. but the new 20% passive wouldn't have been nearly enough to catch it up to pld. the key things to remember are that A. it's only 5% more of an increase than it is now with max stacks, and B. war's biggest issue all along has been lack of reliable mitigation, not how much it's being healed for. warrior needed a lot, no matter what. it just ended up getting about 3 times more than most of us had hoped for.

pld is still gonna be preferred for all the times a party is worried about playing it safely, like with inexperienced healers or perhaps when content is brand new and mechanics are still being felt out. but assuming pld gets no meaningful buffs and the future war buffs are as good as advertised, it's hard not to see war becoming the tank of choice with the elite/experienced groups.

[Kiarax]

Seeing as how my WAR is only 40 (with Allagan Body/Darklight waiting at level 50), I could really use some context here. How is Inner Beast now better than 2.1 IB? I agree that not having much reason to hold Wrath Stacks now is the wrong move to make on SE's behalf, but hoarding your wrath stacks vs anything that matters wasn't any better.

In almost anything pre-Titan it's likely to mitigate less (significantly so in cases like Ifrit/dungeon bosses) than 2.0 IB. Titan onwards the new IB as a stand alone skill is equal or better (big buff in Twintania for example). It loses some utility with Infuriate (not much reason to 2x IB anymore) but I mostly just don't like the direction the class is headed. If the problem is overhealing (too complex to look at your HP obv) they could have made it buff your max HP an equal amount. If the problem was not scaling with content they could have based it on the damage you recently received (as a bonus to the baseline heal, so it's not garbage in easy content) or shit, make it do more or heal more if a mob is a higher level than you. It just feels like they took the easiest way out. "People say WAR needs buffs" "Okay, add DR to one skill, DR to another skill, DR to one more aaand immortality on one to spice things up". Warrior felt different to PLD, if this update is the direction they're going that wont last long. And hoarding wrath stacks has almost never been better. You'd need to be getting cure II bombed repeatedly by 2+ WHMs for that to be the case really.

[Andradi]

As the title says. The formula for old beast is easy, 3xdamage. For the new one it's damage + 1.2*incoming dps (6s*.2 = 1.2). If it's wrong, I'm an idiot and this is all worthless. This doesn't take into account overhealing, or in the new one's case, overlapping defence buffs, or wrath healing stacks.

Basically in normal circumstances the old one is better at under 800 dps or so, under berserk over 1000. The old double with berserk/IR/infuriate poops all over the new one.

I never parse, so I'm clueless here. Do people have records that show how much damage various bosses/fights give?

[Kiarax]

No real accurate way to math it out from an overall parse anyway since you're mitigating burst phases. Titan can pump out a huge chunk of damage within 6 seconds, but then do practically nothing for a significant chunk of time (wasting time casting landslide, gaol, bombs), you'll always be IBing just before the Rock Buster if possible. I guess Cad and ADS are pretty consistent overall though but the latter will probably just be a case of popping it just before getting 3rd stack. Don't think there's any sort of parser that charts out incoming damage during different points of time yet.

[Deadgye]

No decent or good warrior I've ever played with has had threat, TP, or AOE threat problems. They always generate monstrous levels of enmity and keep everything glued to them and never complain. They rip AOE hate off paladins without even trying in coil, even with defiance OFF. Our warrior tank in coil always rips hate off the paladin in AOE situations and ends up tanking with defiance off 95% of the time. This is with him trying his hardest to not take hate and not spamming too much overpower, too.

As I said, it's a skill problem.

lol

[Voyage1970]

As the title says. The formula for old beast is easy, 3xdamage. For the new one it's damage + 1.2*incoming dps (6s*.2 = 1.2). If it's wrong, I'm an idiot and this is all worthless. This doesn't take into account overhealing, or in the new one's case, overlapping defence buffs, or wrath healing stacks.

Basically in normal circumstances the old one is better at under 800 dps or so, under berserk over 1000. The old double with berserk/IR/infuriate poops all over the new one.

I never parse, so I'm clueless here. Do people have records that show how much damage various bosses/fights give?

The way I figured it was to take damage over a 20s period (the normal time it takes to build up max wrath and use it) and then compare the % of that damage mitigated through old and new IB. I'll just show my turning points for the sake of simplicity:

Old IB v. New IB @ 400 damage IB: Equal at ~665 Enemy DPS
Old IB v. New IB @ 700 damage IB: Equal at ~1165 Enemy DPS
Old IB v. New IB @ 1100 damage IB: Equal at ~1835 Enemy DPS

The math for using Infuriate showed pretty much equal results for double IBs. Anything lower than the listed DPS is in favor of Old IB and anything higher in favor of New IB. I also don't have any exact data as far as Coil boss DPS goes but I wouldn't be surprised to find it leans toward the higher end 1500+ spectrum meaning for all intents and purposes new IB should be better.

Usage of abilities that grant extra Wrath can be assumed to contribute equally to both new and old IB judging by Infuriate not making any noticeable impact and any regards to Healing Bonus from Wrath is ignored as the issue is with Inner Beast mechanics itself and I don't think any has argued that tying it to Defiance itself is bad.

No real accurate way to math it out from an overall parse anyway since you're mitigating burst phases. Titan can pump out a huge chunk of damage within 6 seconds, but then do practically nothing for a significant chunk of time (wasting time casting landslide, gaol, bombs), you'll always be IBing just before the Rock Buster if possible. I guess Cad and ADS are pretty consistent overall though but the latter will probably just be a case of popping it just before getting 3rd stack. Don't think there's any sort of parser that charts out incoming damage during different points of time yet.

This is an issue, and you also have to consider Critical Hits and Berserk usage for old IB as that has a profound impact on how much damage you are mitigating as opposed to new IB which retains a majority of it's mitigation regardless of what buffs you have.

[Tymon]

Last I checked, all of the WARs that leveled PLD and spent 4k+ Mythology tomes (read: me) on Valor gear and Relic+1 aren't able to just jump ship and swap back to WAR without hesitation for late Coil bosses.

Unless someone wants to hack the servers and give me my close to 5000 myth back, that is. Or let me refund my:

Valor head
Valor chest
Valor legs
Valor feet
Relic +1 sword/shield

Or alternatively make this drop next week:

Allagan head (miraculous turn 5 kill)
Allagan body
Allagan legs
Allagan axe (read: miraculous turn 5 kill)

If not, then don't expect me swapping to WAR in Coil any time soon. I can't do it, even if I wanted to.

The point? I'm not the only person that has this so called dilemma. Every serious FC does. The nature of the system does not allow for that kind of kneejerk reactionary swap to happen.

[Voyage1970]

If not, then don't expect me swapping to WAR in Coil any time soon. I can't do it, even if I wanted to.

The point? I'm not the only person that has this so called dilemma. Every serious FC does. The nature of the system does not allow for that kind of kneejerk reactionary swap to happen.

I wouldn't jump ship anyway unless you really wanted to play WAR to begin with. Frankly I don't see how these changes make WAR OP or somehow greater than PLD but to each their own. At the very least even if this somehow makes WAR the preferred MT, it will always still be better to bring a PLD as well in 2 tank situations. Chances are the Storm's Path debuff will be separate from Halone STR down and PLD still has the benefit of dropping Stoneskins on the other tank should the need arise. Worst case scenario PLD still has a place just designated to official OT like so many people tagged WAR as.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Now all they really need to do is give some bigger incentive to bring DRG. Unless I'm mistaken every other DoW class mitigates in some way (Halone, new Storm's Path, Dragon Kick, Rain of Death). DRG has what, 2 off-GCD stuns and +piercing damage? Yay I guess?

[Voyage1970]

BLM WHM SMN SCH can all use Virus and E4E as well. They mentioned melee DPS adjustments, specifically DRG, before so guess we'll find out tomorrow during the Live Letter.

[Lucavi]

Now all they really need to do is give some bigger incentive to bring DRG. Unless I'm mistaken every other DoW class mitigates in some way (Halone, new Storm's Path, Dragon Kick, Rain of Death). DRG has what, 2 off-GCD stuns and +piercing damage? Yay I guess?

Drg has KAAAAAIIIN! But yes, I welcome the Drg buffs.

[solipsism]

Please hold your "omg this is too much" comments until after we actually know whether or not they intend to buff PLD a bit as well.

Why would they buff a class that is perfectly adequate at filling its intended role already? PLD is fine as it is, only WAR needs buffs.

[Raldo]

Why would they buff a class that is perfectly adequate at filling its intended role already? PLD is fine as it is, only WAR needs buffs.

Because the game is new, and they've probably noticed a few tweaks they'd like to make to all the jobs...? WAR's my main job, and even I think this would tip the scales a little too far in one direction. I've seen at least one very well thought out list of shit that should change for PLD (tempered will is dumb and it has a long cooldown, Bulwark cooldown is long, etc.).

Also, the WAR buffs are subject to change, so looking too far into them is also probably not the best idea for that reason as well.

[Spider-Dan]

Not sure why all the hostility in this thread. Most everyone seems to be agreeing that WAR could have used some tinkering and got that.

As you said later, this is far beyond "some tinkering." As stated (unless PLD gets some crazy damage boosts), this is 2007-2h-update-level buffing.

Then SE went far beyond that. Most sane people here also recognize that.

You have people in this thread claiming that the changes aren't that big and PLD will still be competitive, so I guess that depends on your definition of sane.

So then WAR will be in the lead for a while...and that's a big problem because? Who the fuck cares just play what you want.

The problem is that many of these WARs insisted that having one job (PLD) with substantial advantage over another (WAR) is unplayably broken and that the rotating-spotlight school of balance is totally unacceptable.

...until the spotlight got rotated to them, and suddenly it's no no, these changes are totally Sensible and Justified because It's My Turn Now or something similar.

If a person really believed that rotating-spotlight is unacceptable, then he shouldn't be cheering his move into the spotlight. Such behavior just exposes the original complaints as whining just because it's not currently your turn at bat.

I may have missed it but where is all the mockery for SE's "war is fine you're doing it wrong" and then the massive changes incoming here? I wish someone could ask them to revisit that sentiment.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if SE can pull out a graphing calculator and mathematically prove that WAR Was Good Enough; if the community is dissatisfied, it's dissatisfied. They had to take action to address the complaints.

[Meresgi]

The problem is that many of these WARs insisted that having one job (PLD) with substantial advantage over another (WAR) is unplayably broken and that the rotating-spotlight school of balance is totally unacceptable.

...until the spotlight got rotated to them, and suddenly it's no no, these changes are totally Sensible and Justified because It's My Turn Now or something similar.

Preeeettttty sure these buffs arn't going to make PLD suffer from the same shit as WARs currently do. People will still bring pallies to shit because they fill the tank role just fine, unlike WARs who stress the fuck out of the entire group for the duration of any fight post Titan. 1st time doing Cad we did 2x WAR tanks, and shit was fucking horrible. We managed it, but only due to the two of us having 3-4 pieces of myth gear and even then it was by the skin of our teeth, and nigh impossible if you split with a stack up on accident.

I agree however that IF these buffs DO make WARs the only tank, then they need to be toned down. Otherwise we get into the realm of WoW buffs/nerfs where each class just chomps at the bit for it to be "their turn" to be the OP as fuck class in PvE or PvP. w/o a PTR and testing it's all speculation though, and just reading the tooltips is not enough for anyone to reliable draw a conclusion on.

[Obsidian]

I agree however that IF these buffs DO make WARs the only tank, then they need to be toned down. Otherwise we get into the realm of WoW buffs/nerfs where each class just chomps at the bit for it to be "their turn" to be the OP as fuck class in PvE or PvP. w/o a PTR and testing it's all speculation though, and just reading the tooltips is not enough for anyone to reliable draw a conclusion on.

Is this not the inevitable result of the reactionary approach you want to take? Adjusting one and then waiting to see how it affects the other is going to perpetuate this see-saw of imbalance.

Hopefully whatever other adjustments they have planned are mentioned in the Live Letter tomorrow so they can all be considered as a whole.