Ark Angel Battles: The Second Coming

[S N K]

Great stuff here but boy, convincing anyone to take a PUP is pretty tough itself

There's a good reason for that.

[Psion]

There's a good reason for that.

Do tell.

[Systematicchaos]

Do tell.

There are more effective jobs. It really just comes down to taking your own group of people to use the setup you want, because if it ain't rangers you aren't likely to use it in a PUG.

[Psion]

RNG, more effective? Sure, maybe. if they don't pull hate and die, like pretty much every rng ive seen does eventually in AA fights, or simply pull hate constantly, forcing all the other DD to run after the mob and potentially killing a mage if said rng decides to be near said mages. sure you can solve it with a relic rng, but those are in limited supply. Pup doesn't cause those issues, because we can dump all our hate entirely every minute, instead of delaying the inevitable for a while. I've yet to parse more than 2% below a rng in these endgame fights, and even then my pup still has quite a lot of gear to get before I can consider it maxed out. If SE ever gets around to fixing automatons attachments and acc cap bug to where they can deal respectable damage again, you might see me easily beating said rangers since I'd have my damn DD buddy back, instead of being forced to use a whm bot.

Regardless, pup has much better survivability than rng thanks to having a pocket whm, and doesn't potentially cause repositioning issues like rng can. If you judge effectiveness as "kill shit as fast as possible" and nothing else, sure, rng is more effective. (barely). I, however, judge effectiveness by whether a party is able to outlive said mob and kill it. Whether said kill happens in 5 minutes or 5 minutes and 10 seconds, isn't important, so long as its dead in a reasonable amount of time. And i've never really had issues getting invites to events because i'm a pup, nor did I ever feel like i was "less effective" than most of the other DD out there. Then again, maybe it's because i'm playing a job I love, so I dedicate all my efforts into making it as good as possible, instead of playing a "more effective" job that I hate.

[Anomie]

Good things.

I wish that more people like the ones you know played. Ones willing to actually attempt (and allow) something other than "the standard" to be done.

Also wouldn't hurt if every single pup I've ever seen wasn't complete garbage... but that's an aside to the point.

[dasva]

Sounds like shitty rngs to me. And ffxiah puts 119 ranged relics at over 320 probably more not picked up.

As far as the hate dump argument why not zoidbe... erm I mean bst for that then? Not a pocket whm but still another body to do dmg and debuff and dump hate. If pet does get hate if using boar zealous snort will say no to that lol. Or drg? Or just /drg?

[Sechs]

I wish that more people like the ones you know played. Ones willing to actually attempt (and allow) something other than "the standard" to be done.

Sorry for sounding a bit rethoric now, but I'm stuck in the middle of your opinion and the opposite.
I too wish players were more open minded*, but at the same time I understand the will of doing things in the most efficient/safest way.
We all want drops and stuff, why suffer to try new things and risk failing and waste 2 hours of your time when you could get advantage of something that's been proven to be easier, with less risk of failure and get what you want done faster?



*
I'm talking about the typical attitude of players, present in every MMO but I feel it's particularly stronger in FFXI, where players refuse to try new stuff and follow like sheep the "method" which has been proven to work.
Everything else gets hyperbolized as useless and until someone comes out and shows it can be effective (and people, again like sheep, start to jump on a new train).

[Damane]

RNG, more effective? Sure, maybe. if they don't pull hate and die, like pretty much every rng ive seen does eventually in AA fights, or simply pull hate constantly, forcing all the other DD to run after the mob and potentially killing a mage if said rng decides to be near said mages. sure you can solve it with a relic rng, but those are in limited supply. Pup doesn't cause those issues, because we can dump all our hate entirely every minute, instead of delaying the inevitable for a while. I've yet to parse more than 2% below a rng in these endgame fights, and even then my pup still has quite a lot of gear to get before I can consider it maxed out. If SE ever gets around to fixing automatons attachments and acc cap bug to where they can deal respectable damage again, you might see me easily beating said rangers since I'd have my damn DD buddy back, instead of being forced to use a whm bot.

Regardless, pup has much better survivability than rng thanks to having a pocket whm, and doesn't potentially cause repositioning issues like rng can. If you judge effectiveness as "kill shit as fast as possible" and nothing else, sure, rng is more effective. (barely). I, however, judge effectiveness by whether a party is able to outlive said mob and kill it. Whether said kill happens in 5 minutes or 5 minutes and 10 seconds, isn't important, so long as its dead in a reasonable amount of time. And i've never really had issues getting invites to events because i'm a pup, nor did I ever feel like i was "less effective" than most of the other DD out there. Then again, maybe it's because i'm playing a job I love, so I dedicate all my efforts into making it as good as possible, instead of playing a "more effective" job that I hate.

the problem is that PUGs dont work that way, in your LS groups its np, because usually in good LS groups people know how the other players play, how their job plays, communication is better. in PUGs shit doesnt tend to work if it gets slightly complicated, this includes Jobs that are harder to understand, need more complicated positioning/bringing them in.

As an example: SCH mainhealing totally works, sadly PUGs want WHMS over SCH. Which is understandable because WHM is imho the better healer with cureskins, offers sancrosanctiy etc. i can cure on SCH np when going with my LS group, but when I am faced with PUGs that dont know how to swap gear into DT sets when shit hits the fan my SCHs cure 4 spam is limited in keeping them alive without a cureskin to give you some time to breathe. not to mention the MP drain. I am also not denying that I have an easier time when I am on WHM, due to the healing tools WHM provides and my WHM and SCH are geared pritty much the same in efficiency for their jobs.

and then there are jobs that really cant compare in their department against the same job, no matter what they do. GEO and COR will never win against a BRD, just because they lack some form of marches and scherzo :/.

I really dont have a problem bringing any DD into the group. But when it comes to healing/buffing there are bigger gaps between the jobs, that just cant be surpassed if the symbiosis of the PT doenst work for it but rather against it.

[Anomie]

Sorry for sounding a bit rethoric now, but I'm stuck in the middle of your opinion and the opposite.
I too wish players were more open minded*, but at the same time I understand the will of doing things in the most efficient/safest way.
We all want drops and stuff, why suffer to try new things and risk failing and waste 2 hours of your time when you could get advantage of something that's been proven to be easier, with less risk of failure and get what you want done faster?




*
I'm talking about the typical attitude of players, present in every MMO but I feel it's particularly stronger in FFXI, where players refuse to try new stuff and follow like sheep the "method" which has been proven to work.
Everything else gets hyperbolized as useless and until someone comes out and shows it can be effective (and people, again like sheep, start to jump on a new train).

I'm usually the first person to just go, "well shit that works, and it's fastest, let's just do that" maybe I'm slipping in my old age, but I don't really care as much anymore.

If a pet job (that can instantly) drop hate like a pup or bst, and still do legit damage (probably more than your average shit tier loloatmnkbandwagon) then logically, it's "safer" and hypothetically faster, (not than annibandwagonrngs though).

I can't even count the number of morons that have been OS'd on mnk/drk/drg etc that I've had the mispleasure of shouting with...

Ever notice that there's absolutely ZERO middle ground in this game? You're either a douche and only douches want to play with you, or you're not good enough to even attempt content, really weird how there is so much smugness from the top and zero fucks able to be given from the bottom, and NOTHING in between.

Really never seen such a phenomenon as no "middle-class" whatsoever. I don't know if that's our fault, or the games fault.

You either flat-out decimate content, or you fail it every. fucking. time. There's rarely ever any barely winning, or comfortably winning.

[Karbuncle]

Personally, unless you're doing AA > Merits > AA > Merits non stop, an extra 10 seconds to 5 minutes here or there on a kill is absolutely no loss whatsoever unless you're anal about adding another 5 minutes to your AFK in Adoulin time looking for shouts.

If you can win the fight, go with what you enjoy playing is my philosophy. But my interpretation of fun in an MMO is playing classes i enjoy, some peoples interpretation is getting sh*t done asap. With any way you want to do it, some people are going to deny you, but some won't, and personally I find the ones that won't far more enjoyable both during the event and as people than the getshitdone folk that think the only way to win is 119's and RNGs. Though frankly to each their own. In the end everyone gets their LOOTS, and you go with what you want.

(ps I suppose everything Psion stands for, I wish my PUP was as good as his :I)

[Fake]

I never understood why people take such a dim view to the "bandwagon" concept, from the perspective of this game. Its not as if we're working inside an unknown platform and there are any great discoveries left to be made.

People who level jobs/upgrade weapons to complete content are pragmatic, not lazy/lacking in imagination. Its not as if you can even cite stuff like play style as a reason for hating 1 job vs another, each category functions pretty much the same across all jobs (RNG is the exception among DDs).

As far as pickups go, why on earth would you waste your time gambling on something like PUP when you can have a much larger margin for error with a RNG. Thats just common sense. If you have a linkshell or static group then obviously do whatever you please.

[Anomie]

You honestly don't get sick of the same damn thing every time a new update hits? :
zomg mnk is so op now evarywon change to munk!

Zomg nao it's deadly aoe change to rangar!

zomg must stun evarything evarywon change to schoolar!

kinda fail ain't it man? There's 20 damn jobs not 1. Just the most op at the moment.

If they want us to play like that, then there should only be 1 mythic 1 relic and 1 empyrean, and it changes form to fit whatever job you're on, since only one job is playable per update.

[Karbuncle]

I never understood why people take such a dim view to the "bandwagon" concept, from the perspective of this game. Its not as if we're working inside an unknown platform and there are any great discoveries left to be made.

People who level jobs/upgrade weapons to complete content are pragmatic, not lazy/lacking in imagination. Its not as if you can even cite stuff like play style as a reason for hating 1 job vs another, each category functions pretty much the same across all jobs (RNG is the exception among DDs).

As far as pickups go, why on earth would you waste your time gambling on something like PUP when you can have a much larger margin for error with a RNG. Thats just common sense. If you have a linkshell or static group then obviously do whatever you please.

I won't say it sarcastically, I will requote this

interpretation of fun in an MMO is playing classes i enjoy, some peoples interpretation is getting sh*t done asap

Fun is subjective, incredibly subjective. Just cause you cannot fathom someone taking a different approach because they enjoy it, does not make it crazy talk.

[Fake]

Except that is a massive exaggeration.

Mnk only fell into grace due to a fairly specific set of circumstances surrounding delve, it was by no means a massively popular DD up until that point, though it did lend itself to salvage v1.

War/Drk/Sam have all enjoyed a perceived notion of superiority at various points in time.

Scholar stunning has been a theme since legion, but right now rdm can be a superior stunner depending on setup.

Brd and Cor have no comparison and have retained utility throughout. Same goes for Whm.

FFXI and every other game out there doesn't have the balance micromanaged as soon as general consensus starts to steer in 1 direction, will always result in certain jobs being more sought after than others.

There are a couple of odd jobs that don't really have a place, but they are the minority and an inevitable result of having such a huge selection of jobs in the first place.

[Fake]

Fun is subjective, incredibly subjective. Just cause you cannot fathom someone taking a different approach because they enjoy it, does not make it crazy talk.

You could take that stance in a system such as ffxiv's, where play styles between DPS jobs are fundamentally different from each other. ffxi's system is not that diverse, and I'm not commenting on people's ability to enjoy x job more than y job, more the complete aversion to a certain job because it is popular/bandwagon/OP

[Karbuncle]

You could take that stance in a system such as ffxiv's, where play styles between DPS jobs are fundamentally different from each other. ffxi's system is not that diverse, and I'm not commenting on people's ability to enjoy x job more than y job, more the complete aversion to a certain job because it is popular/bandwagon/OP

If someones avoiding a job simply because its Bandwagon/OP, then they're probably a fruity-loop crazy hipster. But if thats what floats their boat... Regardless I was attempting more to address the idea that If you can get the job done with 2xPUP instead of 2xRNG, and you enjoy it more, than more power to em... not so much avoiding (x) job cause its popular.

[Fake]

If someones avoiding a job simply because its Bandwagon/OP, then they're probably a fruity-loop crazy hipster. But if thats what floats their boat... Regardless I was attempting more to address the idea that If you can get the job done with 2xPUP instead of 2xRNG, and you enjoy it more, than more power to em... not so much avoiding (x) job cause its popular.

Absolutely do it with PUPx2 if thats an option. Just don't expect PUGs to be open minded to inferior strategies, because they're already eating into their margin of error by piecing together a bunch of unknown quantities. If someone shouts for something with 5 other strangers they aren't look to experiment, they are looking to win, so the logical step is to take a strategy thats achievable and presents the highest chance of winning.

[Anomie]

I think that's the underlying problem the entire game has right now at least... pick ups are totalllllllly random... You have no idea what you're getting into with randoms, the gap is so massively absurd now.

Shouting is the only way to accomplish anything, yet, impossible at the same time because of the nature that is the random. The gap between a "good" ranger and a "no snapshot gear, ah bullet using not relic ranger" ((i dont know exactly)) but it has to be more than 3x the dps... just guessing.

Not everything should be linkshell content (regardless of the size of the linkshell).

[Psion]

Honestly, if you're worried about "unknown variables" in your pick up group, just check them for their gear sets, ask if you can see their ws set, etc. If it looks good, then you probably have a DD who knows what they're doing, and probably enjoys their job. Me, I prefer job diversity in a fight, as each job has it's own quirks and abilities that lend themselves to keeping a fight from going totally south if shit hits the fan. For example, if a pup somehow dies, they can still use their automaton's full strength while weakened, and help with back up cures, or continue nuking the mob, and if a big move slams the entire party all of a sudden, use their 1hour to benediction the party without putting the healer in danger. If a fights looking ugly, a blu can help with back up cures, or perhaps use absolute terror to give some breathing room if the mob isn't immune, etc.

It's great having a party that's full of "preferred DD" and everyone's on the ball with everything, but in a PUG group that is pretty much never the case. Hell, even in a ls group that often isn't the case because you have members new to the content, or they just leveled a needed job and aren't sure how to play it yet, and so on. Job diversity acts sort of like a safety net, where all those little actions used by various jobs can help give a party some breathing room to recover their rhythm. And by inviting people who are passionate about their jobs, you can bet said people will be more likely to use every single tool their job has at their disposal, instead of randomoatsmonk who uses weaponskills with formless strikes on matamata or shijin spiral on a monster that isn't supposed to be enfeebled. just like passionate people tend to maximize their potential, people playing "needed" jobs they don't care about can sometimes do actions that actually hurt the entire party or cause a run to fail.

[Fake]

Your points in the first paragraph don't really have relevance to AAs. People are getting 1 shotted in D and VD, benediction and a few uncontrolled cures aren't going to have any bearing.

Your points about diversity don't really ring true when you look back over ffxi's history either. In the end, setup is paramount