CNN just now discovers that most athletes may not be getting good grades!

[zoobernut]

Did you read what she was responding to? That's not what I was arguing.

here:


she changed the argument to "sports-related jobs"

Fair enough. I didn't read all the way back. I just noticed that in the last post that you were both talking about two different things so I thought I would point it out. Though why are you only talking about roster spots in a professional league and not "sports related jobs" it seems like the latter is much more pertinent to this conversation. The first is needlessly limited. Yeah it would be nice but those are the cream of the crop jobs which exist in any field and are always severely limited and extremely difficult to get.

Study rocket science/engineering? Doesn't make getting a job at JPL or NASA easy working for those companies is the equivalent of studying football and getting into the NFL. Most people who study rocket science/engineering would end up at a lesser known company.

[hey]

Feel free to elaborate rather than making vague insinuations. I'm not going to waste time guessing at your meaning.

There's a lot more going in football than you need to know to play. To play, you just need to know what plays require you to do what, and how to react to given situations. You don't need to understand why you do what for each play, you don't need to understand how to create a new play of your own, or anything like that. There's a lot of details that just don't matter at all to players. But some people may want to learn those details.

[Moss]

Fair enough. I didn't read all the way back. I just noticed that in the last post that you were both talking about two different things so I thought I would point it out. Though why are you only talking about roster spots in a professional league and not "sports related jobs" it seems like the latter is much more pertinent to this conversation. The first is needlessly limited. Yeah it would be nice but those are the cream of the crop jobs which exist in any field and are always severely limited and extremely difficult to get.

Study rocket science/engineering? Doesn't make getting a job at JPL or NASA easy working for those companies is the equivalent of studying football and getting into the NFL. Most people who study rocket science/engineering would end up at a lesser known company.

You should read the entire exchange.

The OP is about college athletes with terrible grades. The athletes in question are going to struggle mightily unless they get one of those few NFL spots. An engineer has plenty of options if they don't get a job with NASA.

[Ksandra]

Though why are you only talking about roster spots in a professional league and not "sports related jobs" it seems like the latter is much more pertinent to this conversation. The first is needlessly limited. Yeah it would be nice but those are the cream of the crop jobs which exist in any field and are always severely limited and extremely difficult to get.

Study rocket science/engineering? Doesn't make getting a job at JPL or NASA easy working for those companies is the equivalent of studying football and getting into the NFL. Most people who study rocket science/engineering would end up at a lesser known company.

This is exactly what I am trying to point out. I read your argument Moss, and I said it wasn't a realistic argument because you are pigeonholing one and not the other.

You'd have to say something like football players have less chances of getting in the nfl than English majors have of becoming writers for a national newspaper.

And THEN you'd have to prove it, because you are the one that seems to think that is important. Not me.

[Moss]

There's a lot more going in football than you need to know to play. To play, you just need to know what plays require you to do what, and how to react to given situations. You don't need to understand why you do what for each play, you don't need to understand how to create a new play of your own, or anything like that. There's a lot of details that just don't matter at all to players. But some people may want to learn those details.

Some positions are more simple than others, but generally players have to learn more than the absolute basics. Players choose certain universities because they are known for preparing players for the NFL.

It would make sense to offer a course that is basically additional film room time or football strategy, but I don't think it warrants an entire curriculum.

[zoobernut]

You should read the entire exchange.

The OP is about college athletes with terrible grades. The athletes in question are going to struggle mightily unless they get one of those few NFL spots. An engineer has plenty of options if they don't get a job with NASA.

There are plenty of engineers who graduate with poor grades and there are plenty of them who have just as difficult a time finding a job. You are saying a lot of words without making a point. Why don't you answer my question. I will ask again. Why would you consider all of the possible jobs in a field for something like engineering but for a college athlete (for the sake of this discussion say a football player) why do you limit it only to those few NFL spots?

Reiterating: This is the equivalent of saying that if you study engineering you better get that choice job at NASA of which there are only a few spots or your education was all for naught.

[Moss]

There are plenty of engineers who graduate with poor grades and there are plenty of them who have just as difficult a time finding a job. You are saying a lot of words without making a point. Why don't you answer my question. I will ask again. Why would you consider all of the possible jobs in a field for something like engineering but for a college athlete (for the sake of this discussion say a football player) why do you limit it only to those few NFL spots?

Tell me, what are the job prospects of a college athlete that doesn't make an NFL roster and has a 4th to 8th grade reading level(see OP)? Whatever degree he has (likely general studies) was all but handed to him. That is why the comparison is apt. An engineer/english major/etc. has options below the height of his or her profession.

As I stated earlier (which you would know if you read the exchange...) after the NFL, your options are the AFL or CFL, neither of which pay enough to live off of long term.

[Moss]

The equivalent would be if there were amateur football leagues (as many as there are engineering corporations) all over the US that paid a livable salary, so if you didn't make the NFL, you had a plethora of other options. Even then you are SOL when your body gives out and you can no longer perform.

[hey]

Tell me, what are the job prospects of a college athlete that doesn't make an NFL roster and has a 4th to 8th grade reading level(see OP)?

This isn't a college problem, it's a k-12 problem.

[Furionstormrage]

The big problem that I'm not seeing addressed here (and I might have missed it, apologies if I did), is that the degrees the athletes in question are walking away with (or without, as a high percentage leave for some professional league before their senior year), is less than worthless. It's not that they're getting a "worthless" degree, it's that they're not actually getting an education.
Who would honestly hire someone with a college degree in anything, that can't read and write beyond a grade-school level? Sure, they can get jobs, the same jobs someone without any formal education can get. I can't honestly believe that "CEO of bank" would interview one of these athletes, find out they can't read and write, and then say "oh well you played ball, you're hired to be an investment banker". That doesn't happen.
Their degree might qualify them for a job, but the fact that they didn't actually learn anything hurts them tremendously. Sure, some of them make it to the NBA or NFL or whatever, sign a few million dollar contract, and they're set, but those are the minority. The ones that are good but aren't stars, end up in a D-League or overseas, making good money, and they're set as long as they don't get hurt. The rest of the athletes that received a horrendous education and didn't make the cut into the majors (which is the majority, by a numbers standpoint), have to go out and find a job just like you and I. Good luck finding anything with the equivalent of a third grade education.
(I live in Raleigh, right around where this story broke, it's a huge topic of conversation here)

[Ksandra]

Tell me, what are the job prospects of a college athlete that doesn't make an NFL roster and has a 4th to 8th grade reading level(see OP)?

gym teacher, school coach, weight trainer, etc.

This isn't a college problem, it's a k-12 problem.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ X 1000%

The big problem that I'm not seeing addressed here (and I might have missed it, apologies if I did), is that the degrees the athletes in question are walking away with (or without, as a high percentage leave for some professional league before their senior year), is less than worthless. It's not that they're getting a "worthless" degree, it's that they're not actually getting an education.
Who would honestly hire someone with a college degree in anything, that can't read and write beyond a grade-school level? Sure, they can get jobs, the same jobs someone without any formal education can get. I can't honestly believe that "CEO of bank" would interview one of these athletes, find out they can't read and write, and then say "oh well you played ball, you're hired to be an investment banker". That doesn't happen.
Their degree might qualify them for a job, but the fact that they didn't actually learn anything hurts them tremendously. Sure, some of them make it to the NBA or NFL or whatever, sign a few million dollar contract, and they're set, but those are the minority. The ones that are good but aren't stars, end up in a D-League or overseas, making good money, and they're set as long as they don't get hurt. The rest of the athletes that received a horrendous education and didn't make the cut into the majors (which is the majority, by a numbers standpoint), have to go out and find a job just like you and I. Good luck finding anything with the equivalent of a third grade education.
(I live in Raleigh, right around where this story broke, it's a huge topic of conversation here)

Ya I mentioned that, too.

[Moss]

This isn't a college problem, it's a k-12 problem.

the problem is systemic and begins long before the players get to the college level. Basically, kids need to be held accountable at every level, independent of their athletic prowess.

.

gym teacher, school coach, weight trainer, etc.

I have serious questions about a school hiring someone with a 4th grade reading level to one of these positions. Being a gym teacher requires a degree and certification. Being a coach requires critical thinking and understanding beyond that of someone with weak literacy skills and no coaching experience. Hiring someone without proper education to run a weight lifting program at a school is beyond asinine, if it is even legal.

[Meresgi]

I agree with Furion, we kind of got sidetracked on talking about degrees, when it doesn't really matter what degree these kids get, its all worthless then you can't even read what the degree says when you look at it.

[Acevalefor]

This just in: The NFL is the ONLY place to get a sports job and ALL college athletes are football players.

Just for fun, how many people does the average NBA basketball team have on staff? Not just players, but total staff positions. How many of those positions require a degree in a specialized field? Now consider staff positions for every NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and MLS team, then, maybe you will get closer to comparing an engineering or english job to a sports job. Until you (both of you) stop arguing with false equivalents, both points are invalid.

[Meresgi]

Towel boy requires a 4yr degree and 5yrs experience

[Acevalefor]

Towel boy requires a 4yr degree and 5yrs experience

As does waterboy.

[Ksandra]

I have serious questions about a school hiring someone with a 4th grade reading level to one of these positions. Being a gym teacher requires a degree and certification.

I already addressed this earlier, but hey you claimed everything I said they are already doing, so this should be a non-issue amirite?

Being a coach requires critical thinking and understanding beyond that of someone with weak literacy skills and no coaching experience.

Again, I addressed this, but you claimed they already did it!

Hiring someone without proper education to run a weight lifting program at a school is beyond asinine, if it is even legal.

I wasn't just referring to schools, you know gyms have trainers right?

And again, I addressed how they could get the proper education, but you said they already do that!

Just for fun, how many people does the average NBA basketball team have on staff? Not just players, but total staff positions. How many of those positions require a degree in a specialized field? Now consider staff positions for every NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB and MLS team, then, maybe you will get closer to comparing an engineering or english job to a sports job. Until you (both of you) stop arguing with false equivalents, both points are invalid.

I agree that all of those are good jobs for them too. I admittedly wasn't really thinking of some of them outside the coaching part, but totally for sure these are also viable jobs. All I am trying to stress is that the professional league is not the only sports-related job they can get.

[Jaybar]

Instead of harassing these players and lashing out at the education system, perhaps there is a proactive way of repairing the situation. Volunteer tutoring in your local community, donate to institutions that help those that are not getting the help they need in school, offer resume/portfolio building advice, and I'm sure there are plenty of other opportunities we can do. Sometimes I forget we are too comfortable in our armchairs.

[Moss]

I already addressed this earlier, but hey you claimed everything I said they are already doing, so this should be a non-issue amirite?

Again, I addressed this, but you claimed they already did it!

You are either being disingenuous or are just really fucking dense. The problem isn't the course offerings (which your "sports degree" would have solved) or tutoring help available. It is the lack of enforcement of basic schooling standards beginning as early as grade school for athletic elite. I have said this multiple times. The fact that a guy can even be accepted and enroll at UNC with a 4th grade reading level is the problem. But if you are an elite athlete, admissions departments make exceptions at the urging of the athletic department. Guess which department is raking in millions and brand recognition for the school.

I wasn't just referring to schools, you know gyms have trainers right?

You know gym trainers also require certification right?

And again, I addressed how they could get the proper education, but you said they already do that!

No, you didn't, because proper education is already available to them. It doesn't matter what kind of help you offer if they aren't held to a standard. If I didn't know better, and my athletic department was willing to write papers and do projects for me, I would fuck off and not go to class either. I wouldn't learn anything but hey, all I know is football and that's all I've ever been valued for.

I agree that all of those are good jobs for them too. I admittedly wasn't really thinking of some of them outside the coaching part, but totally for sure these are also viable jobs. All I am trying to stress is that the professional league is not the only sports-related job they can get.

Maybe if you keep stressing it the strawman will finally understand, since no one is saying that professional leagues are the only sports related jobs. However, if you have a 4th to 8th grade reading level and fail to make a professional league, there is no viable career alternative. You have been chewed up and spit out by the system without a HS or college education because your athletic ability carried you the entire way.

[Ksandra]

You are either being disingenuous or are just really fucking dense. The problem isn't the course offerings (which your "sports degree" would have solved) or tutoring help available. It is the lack of enforcement of basic schooling standards beginning as early as grade school for athletic elite. I have said this multiple times. The fact that a guy can even be accepted and enroll at UNC with a 4th grade reading level is the problem. But if you are an elite athlete, admissions departments make exceptions at the urging of the athletic department. Guess which department is raking in millions and brand recognition for the school.

Because the colleges couldn't offer that as part of their program amirite? The schools couldn't have the classes catered to them with textbooks that are written on a 5th grade level instead of college so the students can understand the material amirite?

You know gym trainers also require certification right?

And I address this.

No, you didn't, because proper education is already available to them.

no.

If I didn't know better, and my athletic department was willing to write papers and do projects for me, I would fuck off and not go to class either. I wouldn't learn anything but hey, all I know is football and that's all I've ever been valued for.

making the proper education comment irrelevant.

Maybe if you keep stressing it the strawman will finally understand, since no one is saying that professional leagues are the only sports related jobs.

No but you are the one that insists on only talking about the professional league as a job.

However, if you have a 4th to 8th grade reading level and fail to make a professional league, there is no viable career alternative.

Implying there aren't already millions of people with a 4th-8th grade reading level with jobs...I mean...you do realize the average american reads at an 8th grade reading level right? You realize many college textbooks are written at an 8th grade reading level...

I think you might need to do some research into what reading levels are.

Yes 4th and 5th grade are low, and we should push that, but that isn't even close to "Cat in the Hat" or some shit. Harry Potter, Holes, Hatchet, etc. are 5th grade books. Not difficult, yes, but still a full on novels most of them should be able to read and comprehend.

You have been chewed up and spit out by the system without a HS or college education because your athletic ability carried you the entire way.

This I have never ever disagreed with. I never said the lower schools (elementary/hs) shouldn't be doing something about this. But just because they (lower schools) should be making changes does not mean the colleges can't also try and help these students have a better shot at the world.

Colleges could just as easily create coursework for these students to improve their reading skills.