[Guide] Black Mage - Because, heavy deeps, that's why.

[StUfF]

Huh?
That argument seems to be for not "saving" TC until Umbral Ice phase, which I'm pretty sure no one does.
Not that Fire I -> Firestarter -> TC is superior to Fire I -> TC -> Firestarter.

after re-reading and reading again.
I'm pretty sure if you have FS and TC he wants you to.

Fire I -> Firestarter -> Fire I -> TC.

Using Fire I -> TC -> Fire I lets you get an additional possible FS (chance of getting back to back FS) proc compared to TC -> Fire I -> Fire I (one FS max possible) and the improved chance of getting FS is more potential damage than the potential for another TC proc.

[BerenTebogo]

Hyur Midlander here, just got HA BLM staff last night, but only sort of play BLM recreationally (planning to start more now).

I have 243 PIE natively, should I respec to 251 PIE native for when I don't have a SCH? I find myself sometimes doing fire spammage and being left with just a few MP shy on Blizz 3. Can't tell if this is because I'm bad or stats.

[Serenseven]

Hyur Midlander here, just got HA BLM staff last night, but only sort of play BLM recreationally (planning to start more now).

I have 243 PIE natively, should I respec to 251 PIE native for when I don't have a SCH? I find myself sometimes doing fire spammage and being left with just a few MP shy on Blizz 3. Can't tell if this is because I'm bad or stats.

No. I did the 22 Int / 8 Pie spec for a bit and the DPS decrease is eyeball-noticeable. Plus whenever you do have a SCH (which is a lot of the time in endgame, at least for me), you'll have excess Pie and missing Int, so you'd just be unnecessarily gimping yourself.

What I did is 29 Int / 1 Pie, which puts me at 244 Pie native, 251 with SCH or with my Novus weapon (which has Pie+7 on it), 258 with both. Yes, at the moment I have excess Pie most of the time, but unlike above, it's only costing me 1 Int instead of 8. The solitary point of native Pie is just so that if I can ever get an HA staff of my own (why is it so damned hard to keep a static functional?), I'll still have 251 Pie with SCH.

[Seravi Edalborez]

I just wouldn't worry about it in general. Thunder 1 if you're just short instead of Thunder 2. Pad time with Blizzard 1 if really short.

[OWS_Tonx]

No. I did the 22 Int / 8 Pie spec for a bit and the DPS decrease is eyeball-noticeable. Plus whenever you do have a SCH (which is a lot of the time in endgame, at least for me), you'll have excess Pie and missing Int, so you'd just be unnecessarily gimping yourself.

What I did is 29 Int / 1 Pie, which puts me at 244 Pie native, 251 with SCH or with my Novus weapon (which has Pie+7 on it), 258 with both. Yes, at the moment I have excess Pie most of the time, but unlike above, it's only costing me 1 Int instead of 8. The solitary point of native Pie is just so that if I can ever get an HA staff of my own (why is it so damned hard to keep a static functional?), I'll still have 251 Pie with SCH.

Pretty much this. It's your stats that's making you short. Adjust your INT on spec to give 251 with sch, which is only liek 1 or 2, I think the worst was Roeg with like 3. I just swithed back to elv and I catch the differences pretty often compared to my lala who had a natural 251. Personally, I'm following Seren's lead with pie on novus since I'm pretty far out from even attempting T9

[haroldsaxon]

Fuck stat points in Piety.

Elezen Dusk, 30 in Int, use Spellspeed 2 star food to get 251 with a scholar.

[Serenseven]

Fuck stat points in Piety.

Elezen Dusk, 30 in Int, use Spellspeed 2 star food to get 251 with a scholar.

Which is fine, until you want/need to eat some other kind of food for accuracy or other reasons.

[haroldsaxon]

Which is fine, until you want/need to eat some other kind of food for accuracy or other reasons.

Because accuracy is so hard to get on BLM. If you aren't doing crafted gear, you can run weapon, legs and the two i110 rings to get enough for T6/7. If you don't have the one ring drop, either run an i90 acc piece until you do, or invest in an i90 crafted piece (either head or ring).

[Black]

I just wouldn't worry about it in general. Thunder 1 if you're just short instead of Thunder 2. Pad time with Blizzard 1 if really short.

^ pretty much this

no MP for T2? use T1 !! no mp for T1 use B1 then T1/T2 ;3

[haroldsaxon]

^ pretty much this

no MP for T2? use T1 !! no mp for T1 use B1 then T1/T2 ;3

Yep. In fact, with high amounts of spellspeed, its more dps to use T1 (and then B1 if you need a filler).

[Serenseven]

no MP for T2? use T1 !! no mp for T1 use B1 then T1/T2 ;3

This is fine for when you find yourself short on MP, but the whole point of this discussion is getting your stats such that you avoid that situation in the first place.

Because accuracy is so hard to get on BLM. If you aren't doing crafted gear, you can run weapon, legs and the two i110 rings to get enough for T6/7. If you don't have the one ring drop, either run an i90 acc piece until you do, or invest in an i90 crafted piece (either head or ring).

I remember eating lava toad legs for a brief time for T8. The choices were either drop to an i90 acc ring, buy an expensive i90 crafted piece to fill a need that would cease to exist with one more drop, or simply eat some acc food for a bit. Once the HA head dropped for me, I switched back to my customary crit/det food. The point is I wasn't locked into a specific food choice and could adapt to meet the situation.

Yep. In fact, with high amounts of spellspeed, its more dps to use T1 (and then B1 if you need a filler).

Considering that high spell speed would reduce T2's casting time by the same percentage as T1's, that T2 has one extra tick (and therefore one more chance at a Thundercloud proc) on it over T1 regardless of its casting time, and that T2 has slightly higher initial damage, the only way this would be true is you have a four-Fire rotation and it's going so quickly that you're clipping the end of T2 and thereby negating T2's extra-tick advantage.

I've always found spell speed slightly overrated anyway. It looks good on paper, and makes excellent theorycrafting material, but in practice you can't ride the GCD for long enough (due to mechanics forcing you to move/face away from target, MP ticks not aligning favorably, etc.) for it to work out. Better in my mind to have secondaries that "work" regardless of situation.

[haroldsaxon]

I remember eating lava toad legs for a brief time for T8. The choices were either drop to an i90 acc ring, buy an expensive i90 crafted piece to fill a need that would cease to exist with one more drop, or simply eat some acc food for a bit. Once the HA head dropped for me, I switched back to my customary crit/det food. The point is I wasn't locked into a specific food choice and could adapt to meet the situation.

The only time you would need to use acc food is if you aren't running the i110 soldiery weapon. The pieces I listed would give you the accuracy for T6/7, and you need 9 more to cap T8, which can be obtained from either another accuracy piece, or if you are serious about raiding a crafted piece. There are plenty of better accuracy options out there (such as the belt, or crafted jewellery).

Considering that high spell speed would reduce T2's casting time by the same percentage as T1's, that T2 has one extra tick (and therefore one more chance at a Thundercloud proc) on it over T1 regardless of its casting time, and that T2 has slightly higher initial damage, the only way this would be true is you have a four-Fire rotation and it's going so quickly that you're clipping the end of T2 and thereby negating T2's extra-tick advantage.

While high spellspeed still doesn't change the time it takes for you to get a full mana tick, but it still is a massive dps increase overall - its the highest weighted stat realistically (Because you get more of it compared to det, the only time you don't is on Novus and you still go 44 SS 31 Det and cap both). It takes a lot of spellspeed to become worth it in the ice phase, but the difference between either T1 alone, T2 alone or T1+B1 is like 0.25% dps, so in the end it doesn't matter too much, which is why I think getting 251 piety is just a bonus. I'd be using 3 star spellspeed food if I could craft it/buy it.

I've always found spell speed slightly overrated anyway. It looks good on paper, and makes excellent theorycrafting material, but in practice you can't ride the GCD for long enough (due to mechanics forcing you to move/face away from target, MP ticks not aligning favorably, etc.) for it to work out. Better in my mind to have secondaries that "work" regardless of situation.

I've always found that det/crit builds have been terrible dps wise. If you have to cancel a cast to move/face away from a target, you are doing your job wrong. I don't really notice it a huge amount on T6/7, I can often finish a cast before I have to move and use swiftcast or a proc while i'm moving. One big gain with spellspeed (while the fight isn't important its a good example) - double plumes on titan. I can cast a F1 in between plumes and not get hit. Its really tight but i've done it consistently.

A lot of people incorrectly write off spellspeed because of hearsay and incorrect assumptions, but i've had far better results with it compared to equivalent or better i-level crit builds. Crit still relies on RNG (which averages out in long fights), and Det doesn't give you as much point for point. If you have to move for a cast when you are running spellspeed, you'd have to move for the same cast when running into crit or det; in fact, because of spell clipping (where you move slightly before finishing a cast and you still finish it), you end up having to cancel more casts in higher movement based fights when not running spellspeed.

[Seravi Edalborez]

The better answer is to gear for all 3 once you're at acc cap and give 0 fucks about having any "useless" secondaries.

[Serenseven]

The only time you would need to use acc food is if you aren't running the i110 soldiery weapon.

At the time, the hunts did not exist, so the only way to get an unweathered Laeveteinn was to already have cleared T8. And I already had an Animus, so soldiery was going into gear at the time.

I've always found that det/crit builds have been terrible dps wise. If you have to cancel a cast to move/face away from a target, you are doing your job wrong.

Well, perhaps I'm doing my job wrong. In something like T8 I'd agree with you: everything is telegraphed well in advance and is little reason to interrupt anything, except perhaps to get out of a Ballistic Missile circle that one shouldn't be in. But in most other fights, even with careful prepositioning to avoid mechanics you know will affect certain areas (such as knowing the layout of the staves' AoEs in the Scylla fight, knowing the sequence of the death ring in T7, etc.), you're still going to have to move immediately for various reasons, your casting be damned.

A lot of people incorrectly write off spellspeed because of hearsay and incorrect assumptions, but i've had far better results with it compared to equivalent or better i-level crit builds. Crit still relies on RNG (which averages out in long fights), and Det doesn't give you as much point for point. If you have to move for a cast when you are running spellspeed, you'd have to move for the same cast when running into crit or det; in fact, because of spell clipping (where you move slightly before finishing a cast and you still finish it), you end up having to cancel more casts in higher movement based fights when not running spellspeed.

I said I found spell speed slightly overrated, not that I had written it off. My Novus has a Crit/Det/SpS mix on it and it seems to be doing quite well. I'd actually like to have more spell speed at the moment, I only have 408 (not by deliberate choice, that's just the way the gear has dropped), which really is too slow. I assumed spell clipping was a given, since you can do that regardless of build.

It's just that in most practical situations, I never quite feel like I'm getting as much out of spell speed as is advertised by its partisans. You and others have implied that I should see a noticeable difference with more spell speed over more crit or more det; I've never noticed that difference in practical play, and neither has ACT.

The better answer is to gear for all 3 once you're at acc cap and give 0 fucks about having any "useless" secondaries.

And to be honest, this is how I operate 99% of the time. But since this is the advanced theorycrafting area, I assumed I was obligated to give at least 1 fuck for the sake of discussion.

[Burrmanchu]

I've always found that det/crit builds have been terrible dps wise. If you have to cancel a cast to move/face away from a target, you are doing your job wrong. I don't really notice it a huge amount on T6/7, I can often finish a cast before I have to move and use swiftcast or a proc while i'm moving. One big gain with spellspeed (while the fight isn't important its a good example) - double plumes on titan. I can cast a F1 in between plumes and not get hit. Its really tight but i've done it consistently........
While high spellspeed still doesn't change the time it takes for you to get a full mana tick, but it still is a massive dps increase overall - its the highest weighted stat realistically (Because you get more of it compared to det......
A lot of people incorrectly write off spellspeed because of hearsay and incorrect assumptions, but i've had far better results with it compared to equivalent or better i-level crit builds. Crit still relies on RNG (which averages out in long fights), and Det doesn't give you as much point for point. If you have to move for a cast when you are running spellspeed, you'd have to move for the same cast when running into crit or det; in fact, because of spell clipping (where you move slightly before finishing a cast and you still finish it), you end up having to cancel more casts in higher movement based fights when not running spellspeed.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. There is not a "massive" DPS increase when running SS. Also even with a full CR/DET build you still have SS, it isn't as if it disappears, it just isnt quite as high. The difference is situational at best. Once you know a fight you can time your spells and movement, and you aren't cancelling more or less spells based on your ~50SS you do or don't have. With higher SS if you're in a standing fight, you will have time to throw in a /lol spell while you wait an extra moment on your mana tick. That's it. If you have to move even once that's likely negated. I guess it's slightly noticeable if you're stuck hardcasting a F3... but as you mentioned there's usually a swiftcast popping up.

As far as SS being weighted the highest "because you can get more of it"... That's not at all how "weight" the way you're saying it works. Weight would be the secondary stat's assumed value in INT in this case; not just what you can get the most of.

There are conflicting stat weight findings for BLM and a couple have DET ranked highest. Not saying I agree or disagree, just saying that nothing is the gospel at this point. A lot of what you're mentioning sounds like more of a personal preference than data. At i110 I've tried both SS and CRIT/DET builds, and I have better dps with CRIT/DET in all coils 6-9. Darnus jumps were a bitch but now I'm used to it, and can get the same/better dps with a lower SS build. Also (unrelated) I prefer to not have the extra wait for a mana tick (this is just for fluidity sake tho).

[haroldsaxon]

Its far more than 50 spellspeed. I'm at 620 including food, any crit builds have me at 500 or less.

Furthermore, if you read what I posted about Det, while at a 1:1 ratio its worth the most (which is what stat weights are, I am under no illusions that they are not), but the only gear which its exchangeable in a 1:1 ratio is Novus (which I posted about). Anything else, you are sacrificing det to get more spellspeed (or crit), which makes crit and spellspeed preferential. Even with that, if you have a scholar using Seleen (which, any scholar worth their salt should be using), then spellspeed is worth more than Det as a weighting anyway. And that isn't even including how much easier it is to move/finish a cast with spellspeed. I get awesome numbers and I even feel when i'm playing that I can do a lot better.

Regarding Mana ticks; You don't always have to wait for another mana tick, and at high damage+Spellspeed, T1+B1 gives more dps than T2 anyway. Or you can go straight into F3 after T1 if you get a quick tick. However, with high crit/det, T2 is better and you can also get a dps gain from "Fireweaving" (Weaving a non important off gcd spell after a Fire so you don't waste a Firestarter proc. Its only really worth losing the 0.5 seconds from doing it if you have a better crit chance - that is theoretical though).

About the conflicting stat weights; EMX used data from dragoon and just said switch Strength for Int and its done for casters. Kenji provided a small amount of his BLM gearsets, I had a post commenting on the datasets earlier in the thread. It wasn't anywhere near enough for making any kind of substantial conclusion on the damage formulae, and any time anyone said this, EMX would accuse them of being racist against french people and cry.

Puro's data was a bit better but he had some errors in his formulae. He's worked with Kenji to fix those and included a lot more data, and its that data i'm referencing above, and seems to have a decent damage formulae.

At the end of the day, if you actually want to min/max, which is what this thread is about, then running a crit build is inferior. Sure, you may prefer it, and I love getting flare crits or firestarter proc crits, but at the end of the day, spamming out more spells is better.

[Seravi Edalborez]

PIE brainstorming because it's unlikely for my BLM to get drops timely (lot of casters lined up in my coil group).

As a Lala plainsfolk (243 solo, tied for 3rd PIE, need +1 to hit 251 with a SCH) I've played around with getting enough PIE to do a 6fire rotation (used healing accs so can't really parse the difference meaningfully). I needed 304 (+61) to do it "comfortably"; ending AF3 with Fire1 > Blizz3 > Blizz1 > Thunder2 > Fire3. With 303 PIE I would occasionally not have enough for B1 without a UI tick.

60 is a significant number because you could hit that with full i90 melds on right side, exactly (+12 x 5 pieces). You would lose out significantly on secondary stats, even moreso if you also melded VIT for Savage purposes. But if we're talking about Savage specifically? Thoughts?

[OWS_Tonx]

I don't have the money sitting around right now to really go and try to test this but the idea is interesting. My average fire I wanna say does around 800dmg, but you lose like 20ilvl worth of int per right side + decent 2nd stats. Not too sure what 2nd stats look like on craftable i90 but I can't imagine all that int and 2nd stats adding up to an additional 800dmg. Using that same train of thought, anyone know offhand how much pie can be thrown on novus? May want to try to max that out so your accessories suffer less if it's an option

[Seravi Edalborez]

Using that same train of thought, anyone know offhand how much pie can be thrown on novus?

23. If you were Dunesfolk or Moonqote that'd work and replace 2 accessories. Otherwise would only replace 1 at +12.

e: gonna map out a set in a bit

[OWS_Tonx]

Getting a little hectic here at work now or I'd try to map this too. Without any numbers to back it, I think novus melded max with swapping an accessory or 3 would be an increase