Revitalization of taking roles

[Sechs]

Since Matsui mentioned it in a recent post, I'd love to hear ideas from competent people about what SE could and should do about it.
I'm coming from the premise that while I don't expect other tanks to perform as good as PLD, yet the current situation with 22 different jobs/classes and only one able to tank is very sad.
In other MMOs this would be preposterous.
At the same time, while I apreciate special situations where DDs can act like tanks, this went a bit too far in FFXI more often than not, and I feel it's partially a consequence of the fact that Tanks aren't given core tanking tools among their set JAs/traits, but often through specific equipment (which can be used by DDs as well).
Think about PDT/MDT stuff for instance.


In General
Tanks should be able to generate and keep enmity more easily than DDs do. They should also have it easier when it comes to damage reduction (traits that give a small amount of PDT/MDT/DT which goes above the 50% cap?)

RUN
I'm not sure what could be done here. Despite potential I feel RUN is broken in its core even when it comes to the role it should excel at (magic damage tanking).
Dasva suggested giving RUN a 4th rune. Not sure that would do the trick, but it would be something.
With 8 elements out, being able to keep up only 3 (and needing 3 of the same element for such reduction to matter) kinda kills the job. Think for instance against a high level version of Cerberus. With Fire runes you'd protect yourself against spikes and Gates of Hades, but what about the Paralysys, which is based on a different element?
What about other mobs, the majority, which use multiple elements? What about mobs which use non elemental magic?
And this is the field where RUN should excel... let's not start with the obvious squishyness to physical damage.


NIN
In a past where mobs could delete all your shadows in a single move, Utsusemi wasn't really that powerful, altough I feel things are going slightly different now looking at new content (AAs, where Utsusemi is somewhat useful).
Buffing Utsusemi too much is dangerous because it can be used even by other jobs who go /NIN. So if they want to buff it, it should be NIN main only similar to the spell interruption thing.
NIN also has a further problem in that it has at least two distinct roles: DD and Tank.
Buffing too much utsusemi could make NIN too convenient to be used as a DD too, so those possible buffs should be available to "tank NIN" only.
The "trick" to address this for NIN imho is in revamping Innin and Yonin. Making them undispellable first, and giving serious buffs to Yonin (don't think Innin needs anything).
Yonin could do something about enmity decay, some other special buff to utsusemi or, I dunno, what else?
Given how accuracy is important these days, the -acc compensative negative bonus should probably be taken away, or at least changed with something else.
I think they should do away with the "decay over time" thing as well.


Other ideas?

[Prothescar]

I'll stick to my original thought on RUN since it was announced: they should treat it as a DD with support abilities rather than a tank.

[Sechs]

I'll stick to my original thought on RUN since it was announced: they should treat it as a DD with support abilities rather than a tank.

While I doubt this will officially happen, I agree it would be better. More PT ability stuff like Valiance etc, and it could find a better role.
I really cannot see effective ways for them to "fix" RUN. It's just the whole concept behind the job that seems broken to me, it's not something that they can completely "fix" with a couple of tweaks here and there. Or am I being too pessimistic?

[Prothescar]

No it's not just you, the concept behind the job is pretty dumb. A tank that specializes in reducing magic damage is nearly useless, and a tank that can reduce physical and magical damage to the same order of magnitude that a PLD can would be superfluous. A magic damage suppression/enfeeblement suppression support DD would be fairly unique, albeit not useful for everything.

[Sechs]

albeit not useful for everything.

Well, it would be a welcome DD in fights where you have single element damage. Kindred Spirits! And stuff like that.
Yeah not much, but it would be a better niche than the current one at least.
They'd need to give RUN a bit more than what it currently has (Valiance + One For All? And Fast Cast with merits of course) but I can see this as a more likely scenario than them succeeding into making RUN a viable tank.

While it would never reach PLD's level of course, I still believe they could do something for NIN though, if they really wanted, and if they made good use of Innin/Yonin stances (so that buffs to the tanking role doesn't end up making the DD side broken)

[Damane]

the biggest problem for RUN is Aegis on PLD. Nerf Aegis to not surpass the MDT cap, give RUN some sligjt physical damage mitgation and allow jas to make full potency use of 1 Rune so you can mitgate 3 elementals up. Aegis is the main reason RUN is suffering in its spot

to compensate for the whining on aegis nerf give it something like mullifying/tesisting all debuffs like slow doom amnesia charm etc

good lord typing on a phone is a bitch

i dont find melee tanking bad, actually i would still leave that option up but make tanks required for really hard stuff. getting a tank in FF14 for stuff was really a bitch and one of the reasons why a left after 2 months, dont want that shit in FFXI

also i think nukers and smns are in more need then tanks. nukeing has been dead since years. while we did catch up a bit we are still way behind when compared to melees

[Byrthnoth]

If you take Aegis away from PLD, RUN still isn't a viable tank. The problem with RUN is that everything does both physical and magical damage, and RUN's JAs really only address the magical half of that (and don't do it as well as Aegis). Their parrying traits are interesting, but don't decrease the odds of being one-shotted by TP moves to a comfortable level.

[Ophannus]

-A great way to make RUN and NIN more appealing is to really nerf ochain and aegis.
-NIN's allure is slow mobs that hit like a truck but by the same token, any DD could /NIN and take that role more efficiently. Need to increase NIN's Enmity from spells/abilities and nerf /NIN Utsusemi a bit either recast or # of shadows or even change it to Blink when /NIN. Most DD/NIN can fulltime shadows and make NIN superfluous.
-Runes need to generate more enmity from usage or give a +10 enmity bonus for the first rune, and +5 for each additional. Maybe even make a stance that adds enmity to runes, and a opposite stance that adds some other bonus to runes like PDT so you can swap between enmity bonus to runes and pdt to runes.
-Flash needs a recast reduction.
-A JA for RUN that functions similar to Afflatus Misery/Scarlet Delirium. Records last damage(before reduction) and adds a bonus to your next Lunge along with an enmity bonus. Call it Grand Riposte. You can store this, duration doesn't wear so you can use it in a pinch.(Icon changes from empty to full like Sublimation), recast is 15s so you can cancel it and reuse it until you get hit by a big TP move/WS then store it for when you lose hate or for a DMG boost.
-Pommel Bash for RUN, functions like Weapon Bash; simply another enmity tool.
-Give RUN an extra rune and maybe a bunch of traits that enhance Enhancing Magic cast on them (thus giving them more DEF from Protect and MDT from Shell).
-Ochain's Damage reduction needs to be hit hard. It's allure should be its 95-100% Shield Block Rate, not its Damage Reduction, which has implications for spell interruption being nonexistant as well as TP gain from Shield Mastery. Aegis shouldn't surpass MDT, it makes RUN pointless.
-RUN could be given some kind of Enhancing spell called Bulwark which could function similar to Fan Dance. High PDT but diminishes over time, slap a 3min duration on it, 50% PDT, decays to 20% PDT after 2min and remains at 20% until it wears off.
-Additional Damage from Runes should be factored into enmity, I know they said this is hard but would really help RUN and Excal PLDs.



Also shouldn't the title of this thread say 'tanking roles' not 'taking roles'?

[sfchakan]

the biggest problem for RUN is Aegis on PLD. Nerf Aegis to not surpass the MDT cap, give RUN some sligjt physical damage mitgation and allow jas to make full potency use of 1 Rune so you can mitgate 3 elementals up. Aegis is the main reason RUN is suffering in its spot

to compensate for the whining on aegis nerf give it something like mullifying/tesisting all debuffs like slow doom amnesia charm etc

Here is a fire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erture.ogg.jpg

Die in it.

Really tired of seeing people suggesting that PLD needs to be nerfed. RUN's concept was flawed from the beginning and you chose to level, gear, and desire to use it. That's your mistake.

[NynJa]

Making something useful should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRR be by ruining something else.

[dasva]

The magic part isn't the problem for RUN except when they still stuff. It already overall reduces more magic dmg to a single element on anything that it doesn't have a floored resist rate (which given the ilvl gear and the runes and barspell not even counting pflug would be like litterally double the macc of easy 99 content) and pld isn't capped resist rate on. Which if they design things right should be about everything we will be facing that we even care about a tank for.

[Vyvian]

If you take Aegis away from PLD, RUN still isn't a viable tank. The problem with RUN is that everything does both physical and magical damage, and RUN's JAs really only address the magical half of that (and don't do it as well as Aegis). Their parrying traits are interesting, but don't decrease the odds of being one-shotted by TP moves to a comfortable level.

Does Rune Fencer's parry trait allow them to exceed the 20% activation cap?

[dasva]

Does Rune Fencer's parry trait allow them to exceed the 20% activation cap?

Yes and iirc recentish tested showed even other jobs getting higher with all the +parry on weapons

[Kanriel]

Making something useful should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRR be by ruining something else.

I can't fully agree. While nerfs do suck at times, they are occasionally necessary for balance to come. For example we're never going to have melee DD job balance until a Monk nerf comes because there's simply no way to buff 10+ jobs instead of simply nerfing one.

I do agree that the best course of action is making RUN a party-support melee DD instead of a tank, though.

I'm not sure if nerfing Aegis is a good solution, but I think PLD will need a nerf if they ever fix enmity cap problems in the game. So far AA's and such are laughable to a decent PLD already, though this is only on normal that I've seen. AA's can practically one-shot the melee DD but once it's on the PLD I think ours went below 50% once or something? PLD's are excellent at the damage reduction portion, so once they fix enmity they may need some form of nerf, sadly.

[dasva]

I don't understand why making tanking viable with normal DDs needs nerfing. Or why there is a problem with a job mostly in full defensive gear taking alot less dmg than DD jobs when it's perfectly fine for them to do much more dmg. I mean what's the point of a super crappy tank job that can't tank? For when you want to kill things really slow?

[Darkmagi]

The problem with RUN is a game flaw in that most content has multiple different elements rather than a single. Even if they were to fix the physical aspect, it will still only be desired for some magical tanking.

[Prothescar]

Depends, really. If they make the physical aspect of RUN comparable to Ochain somehow (which they probably won't, but still), RUN would arguably be more sought after than PLD simply because it'd have more utility and damage output.

[Revati]

To people wanting aegis nerfed: what's it gonna do if you don't let it pass mdt cap >.>. It's real easy to hit 50 with shell and gear. At least it looks cool?

[Martel]

-A great way to make RUN and NIN more appealing is to really nerf ochain and aegis.

Let me borrow sfchakan's post to reply to this thought.

Here is a fire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erture.ogg.jpg

Die in it.

Really tired of seeing people suggesting that PLD needs to be nerfed. RUN's concept was flawed from the beginning and you chose to level, gear, and desire to use it. That's your mistake.

-Ochain's Damage reduction needs to be hit hard. It's allure should be its 95-100% Shield Block Rate, not its Damage Reduction, which has implications for spell interruption being nonexistant as well as TP gain from Shield Mastery.

Do you not realize that this is EXACTLY how things are right now? Ochain has LESS per block dmg- than a freaking typical lvl 75 size 3 shield. And way waaaay less block dmg- than Aegis, or Killedar.

Ochain: -66%
Koenig: -67%
Aegis: -81%
Killedar: -87%

Any notable nerf to Ochain's block dmg- would make it a worse shield than Killedar, for physical dmg reduction.

Aegis shouldn't surpass MDT, it makes RUN pointless.

Keep in mind that the decision to make the MDT adjustment to Aegis was made before RUN existed.

And nerfing one job's relic to make another job useful is an extremely bad idea. I think SE has learned by now, that you do not fuck with our REM.

-Additional Damage from Runes should be factored into enmity, I know they said this is hard but would really help RUN and Excal PLDs.

Not that I have Excal, but No objections to this thought.

[Fwahm]

Personally, I think that Aegis does need to me nerfed a bit in order for RUN to even have a chance at being the go to magical tank. The nerf couldn't be as severe as making it unable to break the magic cap, but I think it does need one.

For example, I think it might work if they made the hard with-Aegis MDT cap 75%, but then gave Aegis the same thing with BDT: 50% BDT with a new Aegis cap of 75%.