Revitalization of taking roles

[NynJa]

Then why would you push aegis past lv75 or wtv

[Kyte]

lol, if you gave it BDT then you ruin a niche that RUN could have maybe excelled in if they made more content that had unavoidable (i.e. you can't just stand on a claw and reduce it) breath damage.


I think the first thing I would do for RUN is make it able to handle at least two elements. So few things in this game only deal/inflict one element's worth of damage/enfeebles. This brings me to the second thing I'd like to see- an AoE Pflurg. I'd also like to see Pflurg be able to work on aura-type enfeebles.


EDIT: Actually, the first thing I'd do is make runes undispellable.

[sfchakan]

How about this, guys. If SE really cares about people playing RUN in any serious circumstance, they could design encounters where it excels. If they can't do that currently, then CHANGE RUN!

What a concept.

EDIT: Fuck it, let's make two jobs mediocre instead!

[NynJa]

I have a feeling Kumhau was their idea of "RUN will tank this like a champ", except Kumhau dispels everything in one fell swoop AND terrors you for a good 10 seconds, in which time it will kill you.

[Sekundes]

Does the only viable tank on anything really need a reason to get nerfed? That's like SE introducing "songstress" which can sing only one song and then people crying that brd should be nerfed so it can have a shot.

Plus, nerf pld and people aren't going to use RUN, they will use DD's. I agree that balance is difficult but I don't trust SE with the nerf hammer. They tend to be quite ham-handed with adjustments.

[dasva]

Personally, I think that Aegis does need to me nerfed a bit in order for RUN to even have a chance at being the go to magical tank. The nerf couldn't be as severe as making it unable to break the magic cap, but I think it does need one.

For example, I think it might work if they made the hard with-Aegis MDT cap 75%, but then gave Aegis the same thing with BDT: 50% BDT with a new Aegis cap of 75%.

Then the only time you would use aegis is for multi elements or non elements and even then maybe not. Right now run already can reduce magic dmg by 75% (and that's with the merits being broken) before resistances and with resistances it already overall will do more. Why would you make Run have more straight reduction and more resistance?

The problem isn't how much dmg RUN can reduce right now as anytime RUN can get off the resist floor it will win on overall dmg reduced. The problem is the whole dispelling of runes and vallation. The former killing it's resistance and the latter would be the same effect as locking out aegis for a pld. And secondly it needs a second element of full protection. My idea is change the runes to max 3 per element but like 6 or 9 total

[Spira]

I really like the RUN concept. as a job, its terrible as a tank at any endgame content worth a damn.. but its incredibly fun to use it to faceroll old 75-90~ content solo.. (even moreso than other jobs by overpowering lol).. and I somehow see the need to strengthen the job in order for it to do that at least decently at ilvl ranges.
I feel like strengthening RUNs tanking ability shouldnt take away from PLD or NIN (which is another issue altogether).. and that there should be a matrix where each tanking style would have inherent pros and cons to weigh. I hope they'll roll out major buffs to the job not unlike how they did it for PLD back in the day when NIN ruled as tanks.

In light of that, i think there are a number of changes that could make the job more useful.

Buffing Rune Enhancement - i would do this in several ways.

1) Firstly, to increase the base resistance gained from each rune (even more than merits give, if they do. i didnt merit that, i think), so that when a 99 RUN puts up 3 runes of 1 element, he is confident that the element in question is almost nothing to him. you can't have elemental superiority if it isn't reliable. right now i think its like 32 resist per rune at 99? I would just double this.. so that you can use this and stack bar-element if necessary, or use a different element barspell in the cases when double elements are needed, which is pretty common.

2) Make Runes undispellable. As someone mentioned, having runes dispelled is like locking a PLD out from wearing his Aegis. its not that this never happens, it just that its not common, and with the way that ilvl gear is implemented, the devs have made it a point to reduce occurences of stripping/encumberance moves because it messes with ilvl. But dispel is commonplace as fuck. and full dispelga is pretty common amongst harder mobs.

3) introduce a job trait for RUN only that grants a smaller bonus elemental resistances to all the other elements for any element up. I believe this is essentially a magic evasion boost. Having elemental resistances be like 1/3 for the rest of the elements compared to the main element rune you're using would help in this regard. Magic Dmg Reduction seems to be handled adaquately by Shell already.

Reducing damage taken - if PLD is the shield blocking master and ninja is the evasion/shadow master.. then i suppose RUN needs to specialize in something as well. Magic tank yes, but not everything uses magic and you still need to deal with general damage mitigation. Parry tank could work in theory, but for that to work they'd need to drastically increase the normal parry rate for RUN (probably through more inquartata traits), with a fully merited Battuta becoming almost like a Perfect Parry skill (im drawing a parallel to Sentinel here). This doesnt address the issue of special attack moves (like iron giant).. and TP moves.. so i suppose something else might need to be done.

Putting more eva on would somewhat encroach NIN's eva tank style, and straight up PDT would go against PLD. Increasing either to some degree, maybe through gear is useful.. I'd think the best they could do is to buff Foil to include a huge DT reduction from TP moves/special attacks and maybe increase its duration a slight bit so that it can be comfortably kept up by RUN even without Inspiration merits.

Increasing self-sufficience - these aren't necessary but i'd see it as something that could definitely help a RUN out.
Perhaps introduce a gambit that cures the RUN. Having Regen is good but not having native cure can be pretty bad. If damage mitigation is working well then spike cures shouldnt be necessary most of the time, but are always useful. Having something of this sort would enable RUNs more subjob flexibility.. or at least more comfort in using /SAM, which i think is probably the best in terms of damage mitigation with Seigan 3rd Eye but can also work offensively with Hasso. Right now all /WHM has for it is Cures, Haste and reraise.

Also, RUN mythic ws.

[Damane]

Let me borrow sfchakan's post to reply to this thought.



Do you not realize that this is EXACTLY how things are right now? Ochain has LESS per block dmg- than a freaking typical lvl 75 size 3 shield. And way waaaay less block dmg- than Aegis, or Killedar.

Ochain: -66%
Koenig: -67%
Aegis: -81%
Killedar: -87%

Any notable nerf to Ochain's block dmg- would make it a worse shield than Killedar, for physical dmg reduction.

Keep in mind that the decision to make the MDT adjustment to Aegis was made before RUN existed.

And nerfing one job's relic to make another job useful is an extremely bad idea. I think SE has learned by now, that you do not fuck with our REM.

Not that I have Excal, but No objections to this thought.

hence the reason why I said in order to compensate for the Aegis MDT nerf, give it something different like: 100% debuff resistance or an insane amount of fast cast. pick your poison. Aegis should have never been allowed to surpass the MDT cap, at least not with the amount it currently can reach.

[Prothescar]

This doesnt address the issue of special attack moves (like iron giant).. and TP moves.. so i suppose something else might need to be done.

Parry works on these. It completely nullifies the damage and additional effects.

[LiquidFriend]

hence the reason why I said in order to compensate for the Aegis MDT nerf, give it something different like: 100% debuff resistance or an insane amount of fast cast. pick your poison. Aegis should have never been allowed to surpass the MDT cap, at least not with the amount it currently can reach.

That's a dumb idea and doesn't help RUN in the slightest.

[Spira]

Parry works on these. It completely nullifies the damage and additional effects.

well thats good to know. it still leaves TP moves then, right?

[Damane]

That's a dumb idea and doesn't help RUN in the slightest.

no its not dumb. the dumb thing was to allow aegis surpassing the MDT cap without an aftermath constantly unlike other relics that need an aftermath to surpass it. dont you see how OP it is and detrimental for future content design if they allways have to factor in aegis?

[Byrthnoth]

TP moves can also be parried. IIRC, when parrying TP moves (including special attacks from Iron Giants/etc), the chat log message says that it "missed" rather than that you parried it.

The problem is that that Parrying isn't a 100% proc rate and getting one-shotted is a primary concern in endgame content at the moment. Ochain has a high proc rate (or close to 100% if not 100%) against almost anything, so it's essentially additional PDT against anything standing in front of you. If you have an 80% Parry rate and a monster uses 5 one-shotting TP moves on you, on average you're dead.


SE could set up RUN's one-shot protection like this:
* Scherzo + Earthen Armor means that you won't be oneshotted by any single action.
* If you have a TP move that's composed of multiple actions (for instance, Rampage or Vorpal Blade) and a high Parrying rate, on average you expect to reduce the damage proportional to your parrying rate. As parrying rate gets high, your odds of a "bad roll" where many swings get through becomes small. With an 80% parrying rate, there would be a 6% chance of >2/5 swings getting through and a 1% chance of >3/5 swings getting through. Toss on some PDT and those are some odds that I start to like, perhaps comparable to the non-block rate of Aegis.

The problem you'd run into is that you've created an evasive semi-DD with damage mitigation (when their evasion check fails) that is on average better than Ochain. SE would either have to tie the necessary massive parrying boost to an RME-tier item (which would suck), or they'd have to accept the irrelevance of PLD.

[Sechs]

Making something useful should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRR be by ruining something else.

On a general rule I agree, and in this specific case I'm very reluctant into asking a nerf for PLD (what I asked is a slight "shift" of power from Ochain/Aegis towards the PLD job JAs/traits. The result would remain the same as it is now though).
But when something is so "broken" that it ruins everything else, of course you have to do something about it even if it means a nerf.

Something as hard as Aegis' MDT not going above the cap is way too much though.

[Sechs]

EDIT: Actually, the first thing I'd do is make runes undispellable.

Runes and Vallation, at least.

[Sechs]

The problem is that that Parrying isn't a 100% proc rate

And it's the same with magic resistance if I recall.
Even with very very very high rates, it's never gonna be 100%, and there's always gonna be that one time where you take full damage and die. This is too much of a risk for a job that's supposed to reliably tank, imho.
It's not a good "core concept" for a tank job, I think.
Unless you give the job a way to handle, to some extent, those situtions.
Something similar to migawari/scherzo/earthern armor.
A spell with long lasting time and long recast... that could be a solution.
By a good and strategic use of such an ability, it could compensate for the non 100% rate of parry/resist.
Good suggestion Byrth!

[LidenbokValour]

I think they should work on PLD and NIN as tanks, and let RUN become sort of magic damage dealer.

[NynJa]

But when something is so "broken" that it ruins everything else, of course you have to do something about it even if it means a nerf.

and what current content is ruining RUN's ability to tank?
PLD's werent needed for skirmish. PLD's werent needed for delve (other than initially, but if majority of groups are reliably clearing without PLD's, its not a requirement). People are clearing AA's without PLD, but majority seem to be relying on usage of a PLD because of all the PHYSICAL damage the AA's can put out, which means the tanking concept behind RUN is annuled in this situation.

[ccl]

I'd like to see them making run the new rdm/nin tank by either making stoneskin/phalanx cap much higher or give run new defensive single enhancing magic buff that mitigate dmg.

For nin idk, maybe add a stance that give enmity+/eva+/single shadow absorb multi hit /aoe dmg but lower the dmg done by like 50% ?

[Lonely]

22 different jobs/classes and only one able to tank is very sad.

Can we have Warrior and Samurai tank please?