Revitalization of taking roles

[Martel]

Yeah pretty much everything on enmity page is probably wrong now lol.

Oh btw, let me say. Thanks for doing all the enmity testing/retesting you've done. It's stuff we need to know, but honestly, those tests drive me nuts. And I always end up doubting my results. ^^;

[TummieGaruda]

Firstly, to increase the base resistance gained from each rune (even more than merits give, if they do. i didnt merit that, i think), so that when a 99 RUN puts up 3 runes of 1 element, he is confident that the element in question is almost nothing to him. you can't have elemental superiority if it isn't reliable. right now i think its like 32 resist per rune at 99? I would just double this.. so that you can use this and stack bar-element if necessary, or use a different element barspell in the cases when double elements are needed, which is pretty common.

This is what I was thinking but more along the lines of making two stances like scholar light/dark arts:

Stance 1:
Everything is exactly how RUN currently is now: 3 Runes and you can stack any combination of Runes where each gives +32 resistance.

Stance 2:
You can only use one rune per element up to three and each single rune would function similarly to 3 stacked runes of the same element so a combination of Ignis, Gelus, and Flabra would give +96 Ice/Wind/Earth resistance. For enspells, they could remove it in this mode as a penalty, or have it so that the enspell becomes either Light or Dark based on the dominant pairing of runes. So the earlier example Ignis, Gelus, and Flabra would have enlight due to the dominant enspell type being light based (Wind and Fire)

[NynJa]

What advantage does stance 1 over stance 2? What purpose is there to use Stance 1 in that case?

[dasva]

Oh btw, let me say. Thanks for doing all the enmity testing/retesting you've done. It's stuff we need to know, but honestly, those tests drive me nuts. And I always end up doubting my results. ^^;

Np. And yeah tell me about. Small mistakes or doubts (especially when you get ones with weird values) often leading to me redoing the same test several times over and each one takes awhile to begin with. RUN 1hr left me bonkers with how high it was. Kept losing count or a mob getting a lucky 1 dmg crit in lol. That's why I've been so lax on finishing up the rest of the spells... and haven't even thought of touching dmg enmity. That and so much new content.

[Spira]

i like the idea of stances. some people dont really see the point of the enspells.. and if youre talking about being defensive, it doesnt bring anything to the table. A stance that "penalizes" the enspell effect to buff the runes ele resist further is a very plausible scenario and a stance that i can see RUNs wanting to use (also if fighting anything which you specifically dont want enspells for but still need ele resistance.. like idk, djinn maybe?)

another possible trade-off is you double the rune's resist rate to 64, but -5 from like all the other elements.

one last thing im wondering is if there'll ever be barlight and bardark.

[Ophannus]

Would have to make a stance that supports differing roles. DNC and NIN have a DD stance and a tank stance. RUN would need a stance that boosts their damage/enmity at the cost of defense or magic defense. Something like:

Stance 1:
-Attack Speed+15%
-Increased additional rune en-spell damage +20%
-Increased Lunge damage +25%
-Runes will not grant any elemental resistance
-Use of wards is restricted.

Stance 2:
-Enmity +25
-Fast Cast +20%/Recast -20%
-Runes give double their usual resistance.
- 10% of damage is converted to MP.
-TP gain is lowered.
-Use of Effusions is restricted.

[Martel]

DMG enmity... I guess magic would be the best method? Static dmg. That or ranged. But it'll probably be really annoying...

The modifier depends on mob level right? So you'll need a high lvl mob to test. I'm not sure how much they changed... but could you project other levels after testing like, lvl 100~103 mobs? Might need a SCH or something for long lasting phalanx so you don't take any DMG...

Yeah, sounds like a pain in the ass. ^^;

[Gorion]

Nerf Aegis? Nerf Ochain? hmm you people are obviously nuts. Comparing Run or Nin to a pld is like comparing apples to Oranges and Bananas.

[Spira]

which is the point. pld, nin and run are designated as tanking jobs, and so we compare them in terms of their effectiveness as tanks, even though the way they do it is vastly different. if you wanna run the same analogy... they're all fruits. it's not like comparing apples to knives and forks.

[Gorion]

nin was never meant to be a tank.. only reason it became one was because of mp issues early in Ffxi. ... not a problem anymore. refresh ballads gear have changed that. Run is a different animal altogether. I believe it was meant more as a support role or Co tank with pld.

[Ophannus]

Right and with Aegis and Ochain, why would you ever need a NIN or a RUN? Why would you need to mitigate or evade a spell or a TP move when you can sit there and eat it for double digits 100% of the time instead of relying on a shadow or a dispellable, short duration buff or % chance for resist to kick in. Neither NIN or RUN have equipment comparable to Ochain/Aegis. There's no Katana for NIN that gives them +15% evasion that breaks Evasion cap or allows Utsu shadows to absorb AoE, there's no Greatsword for RUN that gives them 20% PDT that breaks PDT cap(hopefully they'll get the counter to Aegis in the form of an ultimate weapon that's comparable difficulty to Aegis but probably as a mythic if at any rate).

SE doesn't design content around RME but the fact is Ochain/Aegis are relatively easy to acquire, most PLDs have one or the other and many have both. There's no equivalent for NIN or RUN which puts them at a large disadvantage because even without RME, PLD's abilties and gear allow them to mitigate a lot of Magic and Physical whereas even a base-line NIN or RUN will get slammed hard with either magic or physical; PLD handles both fairly well even without RME.

[Gorion]

Well Said, Ditto.

[dasva]

DMG enmity... I guess magic would be the best method? Static dmg. That or ranged. But it'll probably be really annoying...

The modifier depends on mob level right? So you'll need a high lvl mob to test. I'm not sure how much they changed... but could you project other levels after testing like, lvl 100~103 mobs? Might need a SCH or something for long lasting phalanx so you don't take any DMG...

Yeah, sounds like a pain in the ass. ^^;

Yeah though really any dmg would work for CE testing. But yeah static would be best especially stuff at range so I can run away before it beats me up lol. Yes it's based on mob level and they only changed higher level mobs modifiers. But since the modifier follows a formula itself should only take 2-3 different levels to make a model especially since with cure they seem to have only slightly changed the modifier. My problem is not taking dmg while you hone in on values. And since my mules don't really have pdt/def setups that basically means using my pulling mule to sleep it then add a little enmity and watch which direction it heads when it wakes up while I resleep lol. And that's just CE... when I do get around to it I'll probably just assume that like cure enmity the ratio between CE and VE stayed the same since they only altered the denominator.

[Ophannus]

The type of fight in which NIN would flourish is Ark Angel Galka. He does an AoE once in a while, avoidable with 2-3 Shadows and all of his WS are single hit, direct target attacks. The problem is, why bring a NIN which is a subpar DD when you could bring MNKs or SAMs and just have them /NIN? /NIN gives basically enough shadows to shut down Meikyo Shisui completely. To make NIN main more viable, they might have to remove a shadow or two from /NIN's utsu spells or make them like blink shadows where they don't always proc. It sounds lame to nerf something like that after all this time, but nobody has taken NIN seriously as a tank since Abyssea and even then, any MNK THF or DNC could tank just as well on most mobs with /NIN.

[dasva]

NIN or RUN will get slammed hard with either magic or physical; PLD handles both fairly well even without RME.

I'll agree with most of the rest of what you said but pld without aegis isn't really much better than a nin for magic dmg. Argueably worse. Outside of fealty for the few weird things it works on rampart (which is sometimes actually determental with it blocking cure skins) a non aegis pld doesn't really have magic tools that other jobs don't have.

Also as far as nin wasn't there an update awhile back about them using less shadows based on skill of mainhand weapon? Haven't tested it but assuming it works decently well add san to that and less moves that just wipe shadows and would help

[Ophannus]

I think they just added that to NIN to simulate +Ninjutsu skill since that's what Ninjutsu skill does, lessens the # of shadows an AoE takes(but AoEs that wipe shadows completely will still wipe shadows completely). Dunno about San unless they retool it because San gives 10 shadows. PLD has better MDT/DT gear than NIN, Rampart, Shell IV and Fealty although Shell is moot I suppose.

[dasva]

That's what I meant though. Fealty is extremely niche. Mostly just working on debuffs. Rampart is ~400 dmg magic shield that at most lasts 30 seconds every 5 minutes that prevents cureskinning/is prevent by cure skins. More of an emergency measure of your healer isn't alive or paying attention or something and you happen to see an incoming nuke and are low and the timer is up and you don't have time to cure yourself

And the mdt/dt/self shell is also somewhat moot since we can assume this is for party situations and with shellra V you can cap with say just rings and neck.

[Martel]

Yeah though really any dmg would work for CE testing. But yeah static would be best especially stuff at range so I can run away before it beats me up lol. Yes it's based on mob level and they only changed higher level mobs modifiers. But since the modifier follows a formula itself should only take 2-3 different levels to make a model especially since with cure they seem to have only slightly changed the modifier. My problem is not taking dmg while you hone in on values. And since my mules don't really have pdt/def setups that basically means using my pulling mule to sleep it then add a little enmity and watch which direction it heads when it wakes up while I resleep lol. And that's just CE... when I do get around to it I'll probably just assume that like cure enmity the ratio between CE and VE stayed the same since they only altered the denominator.

How up to date is the test server? I could possibly help there. Burtgang(wouldn't cast anything in it during tests) Ochain, capped PDT, and a SCH's perpetuance'd phalanx/SS should make me take 0 dmg for a nice long time during a test.

[ccl]

The problem is, why bring a NIN which is a subpar DD when you could bring MNKs or SAMs and just have them /NIN?

People that use nin in AA reported it does more dmg than mnk due to mnk having to recast shadow a lot more, Sam/nin would either die due to very long recast on shadow or do even less dmg due to not using hasso.

[dasva]

How up to date is the test server? I could possibly help there. Burtgang(wouldn't cast anything in it during tests) Ochain, capped PDT, and a SCH's perpetuance'd phalanx/SS should make me take 0 dmg for a nice long time during a test.

No idea. I always had a hard time making test server work for me and it always did weird stuff that made it impossible to tribox on the same comp for me.