Bill Nye vs Ken Ham creationism/evolution debate

[Kryssan]

Neil has talked about this before, but I'll just post it again since I see it kind of being lost in the noise.




This is what makes me honestly scared of religion. Faith has never been in contempt for me, all people require faith. Even if that faith is something as egotistical as simply believing in one's self over all other things.

The issue, I feel, is when you allow yourself to become so constricted and / or ego'd to think that just because you can't solve this problem, noone else ever will be able to solve this problem, and therefore God(s) [did it]. I firmly believe in Einstein's "Imagination is more important than knowledge" statement, but I see religion as being an imagination cap - people in my experience who generally proscribe to it limit their imagination based on someone else's archaic ideas/ideals and leave the rest of us poorer for it.

[wipers]

I can't take anyone serious that has a bow tie. Sorry Bill.

http://media3.giphy.com/media/13Crr6gkUCCEWA/giphy.gif

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Just+Bi...c6_4510823.gif

[Tokitoki]

Sent this around my office. So far only one person has watched it with another person saying "Fuck, I forgot to watch it!" The one that watched it believes in God as the creator, but does not believe in the young earth stuff. We had a brief discussion about what we both thought then he asked what I thought about paranormal stuff like spirits.

I told him I thought it might be a separate "dimension" where an event didn't occur that caused that person to die and they live on in that dimension. In this case, we reach a point where we can briefly interact and that is what we perceive as ghosts.

Anyone else maybe bring this debate up among friends or the workplace and have any discussions regarding it?

[Pyrena]

I haven't tried discussing it with coworkers, because to me the debate is clearly one sided and I feel like I'd be saying, unprovoked, here's what I think of you being religious. I was intently listening for someone else to bring it up though, and no one has.

[wipers]

I've argued politics and religion with my friends all the time. But mostly when I'm drunk. So not sure what that means.

Either I drink too much or not enough.

I wouldn't care about co workers enough to argue something interesting. But that is another thread...

[Ksandra]

Sent this around my office. So far only one person has watched it with another person saying "Fuck, I forgot to watch it!" The one that watched it believes in God as the creator, but does not believe in the young earth stuff. We had a brief discussion about what we both thought then he asked what I thought about paranormal stuff like spirits.

I told him I thought it might be a separate "dimension" where an event didn't occur that caused that person to die and they live on in that dimension. In this case, we reach a point where we can briefly interact and that is what we perceive as ghosts.

Anyone else maybe bring this debate up among friends or the workplace and have any discussions regarding it?

We had a thread about ghosts a few years ago if you are apt to find it. I have actually seen a "ghost" but don't believe in them. After years and years of pondering how I saw what I saw, I believe they are some sort of brain hiccup/malfunction that causes some sort of faded memory to pop up.

If I find my post of the ghost story I'll link it, but I am too lazy to retype the whole story.

[Waraji]

I would never bring this up in my office.

[wipers]

I would never bring this up in my office.

First date yes. Co workers no!

[Tokitoki]

We had a thread about ghosts a few years ago if you are apt to find it. I have actually seen a "ghost" but don't believe in them. After years and years of pondering how I saw what I saw, I believe they are some sort of brain hiccup/malfunction that causes some sort of faded memory to pop up.

If I find my post of the ghost story I'll link it, but I am too lazy to retype the whole story.

What about when people see/hear things that they have no chance of knowing about? People that are murdered in homes? Anyway, not for this thread, just something to think about.

I would never bring this up in my office.

You guys have boring offices. Obviously we were not arguing anything. He said what he thought and I said what I thought and neither of us tried to convince the other of anything. It can be a discussion without an argument.

Also, I work for a GC so other topics of conversation include much more vulgar, argumentative, and other things on a daily basis. There's a bunch of older conservative guys talking Fox News politics, throwing around racial slurs and homophobic comments, and other things while the lawyer yells at everyone to stop. It's a lively office.

[Intense]

I have actually seen a "ghost" but don't believe in them. After years and years of pondering how I saw what I saw, I believe they are some sort of brain hiccup/malfunction that causes some sort of faded memory to pop up.

Would it be completely off topic to ask you to tell your "ghost" story? I don't personally believe in them, but they fascinate me to no end. :D

[wipers]

The only conversations I've had with coworkers are boring shit that people do when they don't like silence.

[Tokitoki]

The only conversations I've had with coworkers are boring shit that people do when they don't like silence.

That sucks. I feel for you, as I've worked in those environments as well.

EDIT: This is probably the ghost thread, but I haven't read it yet. Ksandra is in there somewhere though as I used her user name as a search criteria.

Double Edit: Removed the highlights from the thread link.

[Ksandra]

Would it be completely off topic to ask you to tell your "ghost" story? I don't personally believe in them, but they fascinate me to no end. :D

I don't believe in ghosts, but I saw one (if that makes any sense).

I used to work in a 1800s tavern as a waitress. It was/is a small room with one front and one back door (both can be seen from each other.) and one set of stairs to the second floor.
We got our food and key to the place from the galley restaurant (this was at one of those 1800 museum places so bunch of places). Only my boss had a key at all times, the rest of us picked it up from the galley and in the morning only one of us got a key to open up.

Basically in the morning before the place was open only my boss and the opener would have a key to the place.

So anyway, I was the opener one morning, got the key and food and brought the cart over to the tavern. I unlock the back door (front was the entrance and was always locked until opening time). I saw my boss already in costume with her back turned to me starting a fire in the fireplace. I thought it was odd because it was the summer, but sometimes we would put it on anyways for ambiance. So I shut the door and went upstairs to put on my costume, and my boss was already up there putting hers on...

I said "Janet weren't you just starting a fire in the fireplace?" Hella confused as I was because there's no way she could have gotten ahead of me in the first place.

She responded "no it's the summer, why would I?"

I ran back downstairs and there was no one there and nothing in the fireplace.


Now there is no "spare key" or anything like that. No one else could have gotten in, especially someone in costume, each building is run separately. And no one that worked at the tavern would have fit the woman's description (she was very heavy-set and only other worker that's heavy set was my boss).

I'm sure people will try to justify it, and logically, as I said, I don't believe in ghosts, but I can't fucking explain this at all. If you could see the layout of the tavern you would understand there is absolutely no way my boss could have gotten up the stairs before me without seeing it. And no way anyone else could have been there.


There were other "incidents" about the place, but that was mostly like hearing voices/feet upstairs when no one was there. But those can obviously be explained (old place is old), but there's just no way I can wrap my mind around wtf happened that day and who was that woman.


[edit] this is also something I didn't just glance at quickly either btw. like I had to put some food in the fridge while she was there the whole time n' such, and I saw here there the whole time.

Thread:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/999...st#post4194305

But ya, I think my brain was somehow hallucinating and putting my boss there. At least, that is my Scully answer, and I am sticking to it.

[Intense]

Thread:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/999...st#post4194305

But ya, I think my brain was somehow hallucinating and putting my boss there. At least, that is my Scully answer, and I am sticking to it.

Was the 'person' you saw that same height/build/hairstyle/color as your boss? I think our brains fill in the blanks and think we see things. Was the fireplace lit or did you just see someone 'at' the fireplace so that's what you reasoned for someone being in that location?

[Blubbartron]

This is what makes me honestly scared of religion. Faith has never been in contempt for me, all people require faith. Even if that faith is something as egotistical as simply believing in one's self over all other things.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that "faith" is a biological or psychological necessity?

Also, you shouldn't confuse justifiable confidence in one's self with egotism. Believing you're awesome at something without evidence would be faith in one's self (as well as a sign of an egotistical prick), but reasonably justified confidence based on past experience is not faith of any form.

Mincing the word "faith" to try and make theists feel better about themselves is exactly as bad as the creationists mincing the word "theory" to justify their stupid beliefs. Faith is willful ignorance, and only on rare occasions does it have any benefit at all (in the form of the placebo effect).

[Tokitoki]

Thread:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/999...st#post4194305

But ya, I think my brain was somehow hallucinating and putting my boss there. At least, that is my Scully answer, and I am sticking to it.

One time I was on vacation with my family. I was 7 1/2 as I remember my brother just learned how to walk on that vacation so he must have been about a year old.

In the bedroom I went to go to sleep and heard very heavy breathing. It was constant and rhythmic like you would expect from a person breathing. I screamed because I was young, and my dad came running in. He turned on the lights and sat with me for a bit, but we didn't hear it. He turned out the lights and closed the door and I immediately heard it again. He comes back in, this time leaves the lights off, and closes the door.

We both hear it and he starts tracking down where it's coming from. He moves towards the dresser and looks behind it, nothing. The closet, nothing. He goes to a small side table and...

It was the fucking alarm clock. I guess the noise from the TV or something outside the room drowned out the sound when he came in the first time. Who the fuck would make a clock that sounds like it's breathing?!

Other than that I've been woken up from a dead sleep because I think I hear my name being yelled into my ear or something, but never have had any experiences that I couldn't explain as weird dreams or my brain playing tricks on me.

[Ksandra]

Was the 'person' you saw that same height/build/hairstyle/color as your boss? I think our brains fill in the blanks and think we see things. Was the fireplace lit or did you just see someone 'at' the fireplace so that's what you reasoned for someone being in that location?

Honestly, one of the reasons I did the quote instead of retyping is now the whole memory is starting to get foggy over time. This would have happened in 1998. lol So take my answers with a grain of salt.

The fire was never lit. The woman never turned around, she was bent over it though, and moving as if she was getting it ready. iirc she seemed the same built as my boss (very heavy set), and my boss was the only one with that built that would have had a key.

So ya, I definitely think my brain had a hiccup and put her there for w/e reason. I cannot stress enough how real it felt though. So, in any case, to me it makes sense that these hiccups could happen to other people and make them think they see something they really don't.

[Intense]

The fire was never lit. The woman never turned around, she was bent over it though, and moving as if she was getting it ready. iirc she seemed the same built as my boss (very heavy set), and my boss was the only one with that built that would have had a key.

So ya, I definitely think my brain had a hiccup and put her there for w/e reason. I cannot stress enough how real it felt though. So, in any case, to me it makes sense that these hiccups could happen to other people and make them think they see something they really don't.

My guess is that maybe you have seen your boss from that angle doing that same thing before without even realizing you had seen her so your mind 'hiccuped' and went back to that and filled that part in. So perhaps it felt real because at some point it was.

I do think that people maybe subconsciously 'will' their experiences to happen though but I have a block I think that prevents me from willing or manifesting.

Like I mentioned before, I have no belief in ghosts nor have I even ever experienced anything that I couldn't rationalize without too much effort. I still wish I would experience something; I think it'd be fun!

[SephYuyX]

Same boat as others, don't believe in ghosts and that jazz, but do believe I saw one as a kid along with my younger sister.
We lived in an 1800s farm house at the time (moved there when I was 5), and I was around 10 or so, my sister was a few years younger.

We were playing on the main floor around the stairs leading up to the bedrooms. The layout basically looks like a Y where the stairs lead up to a sort of V split (the left side is closer to horizontal though, while the right is straighter, and further back in the house), where my sisters room is on the left, and mine is on the right.

At some point we were about to run up stairs, and as we were heading in that direction towards the stairs looking up, we saw a ghostly figure walk out from my sisters room, we stop in our tracks and so does it for a moment at the top of the stairs, we look at each other and back at it, as it walks off to my room. We look back at each other and sort of do the whole "did you see.. yeah so did I.." exchange.

The figure was an older man, beard, boots, and gallon hat, we had both seen the same thing.

We told our parents what we saw and they look at us odd, my mom said she's going to go find a picture, one that was buried in a bunch of papers and stuff from the original house (the last in family old lady survivor of the family who we bought the house from gave it to us) they kept in a box down in the old musty stone wall scary basement (stuff I never saw since I didn't go down there). She showed us the pic, and it was exactly who we saw. She told us this was the man who built the house, the farm, etc, who lived at the house with his family until he hung himself for some reason I don't remember.

Needless to say I didn't sleep easy for a while lol. We never saw him or anything else again though.

Years later we sold the house (I think I had just finished HS) to an artsy type couple, and we move on to bigger and better. The neighbor we had there died about 5 years ago so we went to his funeral since we still lived in the area, still went to Church with all the same people, etc. We saw the current residents there and were just talking about how nice the house looks and that stuff, and how we missed living it. At some point we joked about seeing a ghost there once, and they laughed saying something like "was it an old farmer cowboy looking guy?" we said yes, and told them the story about how we saw it, and what had happened to the guy.

So yeah, idk, but it was an interesting experience.

[BaneTheBrawler]

i'm of the opinion that ghosts and other "paranormal" shit is just our mind giving in to its own power of suggestion. if you walk down a dark street alone at night and you think of what a nice, brisk night it is, you'll feel fine. if you think of all the rapists hiding in the bushes behind you, you're gonna walk more quickly and keep looking over your shoulder, and feel like someone's watching you. likewise, if you go into a place that looks creepy and expect to hear/see weird shit, that's exactly what you'll get.

i've come to this conclusion because i can control the whole process.