Notorious Monster Placeholders Testing

[Byrthnoth]

There are exactly two placeholders for Black Triple Stars, and they both spawn on the middle level where the NM does. All the "spawn on other floors" and "PH is secretly a goblin" stuff is just as bullshit as it has always sounded.

If you Widescan, there are two sets of Ochu x2 with groups of 3-4 bats below them on the middle level. The BTS PH is the top bat in the group of 4.

[Byrthnoth]

Ack! That's why having a thread like this is good. I did a similar test with Ascetic's Tonic a while ago and came out with the same result.


So, I have been hunting random lotto NMs using POLUtils and radar, and I found something weird that I hadn't personally heard about before. Most NMs are what I'd expect, kill a PH and the NM sometimes respawns instead of it (Black Triple Stars, Eldritch Edge, Masan, Namtar, Noctuous Weapon, Sea Hog, etc.), but I left my mule behind the Mythril door in SSG for the last ~12 hours and found a different system that also seems to happen. It seems that some NMs spawn *with* their PH, which I'd personally not heard of before.

Pahh the Gullcaller and Worr the Clawfisted both seem to work this way.

Interesting to note that Pahh the Gullcaller pretty easily has the most complicated spawn system of any NM I've dealt with thus far, which is weird considering how obscure and worthless he is. There are 6 Bog Sahagins in his area in the .dats. Of the 6 potential Sahagins, there are actually 2 sets of 3 where only one member of the set can be up at any time. Pahh respawns with one of the sets of three.

Worr the Clawfisted has 4 potential Sahagins in his room, Swamp/Bog/Marsh1/Marsh2. Marsh2 is always up, but only one of the other three can be up at any given time. Worr spawns alongside the 3-Sahagin group. I was actually sitting there watching when Worr spawned alongside a Bog Sahagin, followed by Marsh Sahagin2 30 seconds later. The best control would be to avoid killing the second Marsh Sahagin and to still pop him, but it's not that big of a room and they link. >:/ Also, it's a damned indoor lotto.

Has anyone else ever found something like this to be the case? There were only 2 other players behind the Mythril door during the time I was doing this, and they were both farming Swamp Sahagins.

[Kirschy]

Ack! That's why having a thread like this is good. I did a similar test with Ascetic's Tonic a while ago and came out with the same result.


So, I have been hunting random lotto NMs using POLUtils and radar, and I found something weird that I hadn't personally heard about before. Most NMs are what I'd expect, kill a PH and the NM sometimes respawns instead of it (Black Triple Stars, Eldritch Edge, Masan, Namtar, Noctuous Weapon, Sea Hog, etc.), but I left my mule behind the Mythril door in SSG for the last ~12 hours and found a different system that also seems to happen. It seems that some NMs spawn *with* their PH, which I'd personally not heard of before.

Pahh the Gullcaller and Worr the Clawfisted both seem to work this way.

Interesting to note that Pahh the Gullcaller pretty easily has the most complicated spawn system of any NM I've dealt with thus far, which is weird considering how obscure and worthless he is. There are 6 Bog Sahagins in his area in the .dats. Of the 6 potential Sahagins, there are actually 2 sets of 3 where only one member of the set can be up at any time. Pahh respawns with one of the sets of three.

Worr the Clawfisted has 4 potential Sahagins in his room, Swamp/Bog/Marsh1/Marsh2. Marsh2 is always up, but only one of the other three can be up at any given time. Worr spawns alongside the 3-Sahagin group. I was actually sitting there watching when Worr spawned alongside a Bog Sahagin, followed by Marsh Sahagin2 30 seconds later. The best control would be to avoid killing the second Marsh Sahagin and to still pop him, but it's not that big of a room and they link. >:/ Also, it's a damned indoor lotto.

Has anyone else ever found something like this to be the case? There were only 2 other players behind the Mythril door during the time I was doing this, and they were both farming Swamp Sahagins.

I used to camp Pahh way back in the day when it dropped Siren's Hair! Back then I didn't have things like Radar, so it's hard for me to be certain, but it was a consistent pop if you just killed the 3 Sahagin in that corner. If I'm reading you correctly, there's 3 spawns, where each has 2 possible mob dats that pop for each?

On a related note, it would be interesting to get a real technical thread started in advance where people can explain the various mob popping systems. (ie; where you have 3 possible spawns tied to 3 mob DATs, where you have 3 possible spawns tied to 4 mob DATs, lotto pop systems, time spawns, etc...)

[Byrthnoth]

Oh shit, that's why his spawn system is so crazy! Did Worr also drop Siren's Hair? Also, it's possible that they updated his spawn system to combat RMT after you camped him. It is also unique because it's essentially impossible to camp with Widescan. I just did a proof of concept with it (only kill the PH), which moves way outside his corner, and I definitely have the right system nailed down.

The only one I haven't been able to pop is Mouu the Waverider. It looks like it has a really obvious PH, but it it hasn't popped in the last 8 hours.

[Kirschy]

Oh shit, that's why his spawn system is so crazy! Did Worr also drop Siren's Hair? Also, it's possible that they updated his spawn system to combat RMT after you camped him. It is also unique because it's essentially impossible to camp with Widescan. I just did a proof of concept with it (only kill the PH), which moves way outside his corner, and I definitely have the right system nailed down.

The only one I haven't been able to pop is Mouu the Waverider. It looks like it has a really obvious PH, but it it hasn't popped in the last 8 hours.

It's possible it changed after RMT. I camped this so long ago I never had competition from RMT or anyone else because there was no wiki or anything of the sort that let people know Siren's Hair dropped from him! I don't know if Worr dropped, but I killed Mouu plenty of times with no hair drop. As far as I knew, Pahh was the only hair dropping NM behind the silver door.

Also made a thread: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104...28#post4559628
I'm hoping it catches~

[Byrthnoth]

I tossed my 2 cents in. I will post my current .xml in a bit to give us a start as far as a big list of PHs.

[Byrthnoth]

Double Post, but does anyone have or remember where the testing of monster respawn times was? Someone showed pretty conclusively that the server loads (and unloads?) monsters every 30 seconds.

[Masamune]

maybe Monster Data thread would be adequate for those spawn conditions testings ?

[Mojo]

I believe that multiple mobs sharing the same pop slot is actually quite common. I think it generally only occurs in dungeons. A possible rule of thumb is that an NM will be included within a grouping of mobs that can all spawn within a specific bounding box, but only some fraction of them can be up at once. I wouldn't know if there is a specific mob within a grouping that serves as a placeholder for the NM or if all mobs in that grouping serves as placeholders, but the latter seems most likely to me.

[Byrthnoth]

Err... I guess I was unclear. Multiple monster sharing the same pop spot is very common. You kill one, there's a chance of any individual that *can* pop in that slot repopping there. A common example a lot of people may have dealt with is the Fomor THF/RNG pop slot in Phomiuna Aqueducts.

What I meant above is that monsters spawn alongside each other. So I kill one monster and it repops as two, one of which is the NM.

[Mojo]

That mechanic could be common in dungeon NMs though if the NM itself is not included in the grouping (which would make perfect sense, to me.)

[Byrthnoth]

I'm not sure. Here are the lottos that I have found, most of which are admittedly outdoors (and a lot of which are just following the dagger or gaxe NM paths). I start with a genuine attempt at name spelling and eventually give up. You'll be able to tell what I mean, I think.

Sea Hog - Typical Lotto, 2 PHs in the .dats
Noctuous Weapon - Typical lotto, 2 PHs in the .dats
Gangly Gean - Typical lotto, 3 PHs in the .dats (I think)
Tonberry Lieje - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Valkurm Emperor - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Megalobugard - Typical lotto, 4 PHs in the .dats
Drooling Daisy - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Eldritch Edge - Typical lotto, 2 PHs in the .dats
Black Triple Stars - Typical lotto, 2 PHs in the .dats
Mischievous Micholas - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Okyupete - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Masan - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Namtar - Typical lotto, 2 PHs in the .dats
La Vuele - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Daggerclaw Dracos - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Ratosktr - (stupid Rabbit NM) - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Raffllcopter NM (Fort KN) - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Gargantua - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Wurr the Sandcomber - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats
Fyuu the Seabellow - Typical lotto, 2 PHs in the .dats
Seww the squidlimbed - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats (I think)
Voll the Sharkfinned - Typical lotto, 1 PH in the .dats

Oddballs:
Serapoda Ishtar - I have heard of but never seen odd spawn behavior for this NM, Lizzy-ish, 2 PHs in the .dats
Leaping Lizzy - Odd spawn behavior, 2 PHs in the .dats. I haven't camped this "scientifically" yet.

Pahh the Gullcaller - Spawns alongside (or before) its PH. Only one Sahagin kill is required to spawn it, and that one Sahagin is one of a set of 3 in the .dats.
Worr the Clawfisted - Spawns alongside (or before) its PH. So far I've been unable to spawn him following a single pull, but I can just start camping him on RDM and Sleep/logout in the event of a link.
Mouu the Waverider - Damned if I know. Maybe he's a simple lotto off a leech or crab or something, but I killed the Sahagins in his area pretty regularly for about 12 hours and never saw a spawn.

Pahh dropped Siren's Hair in the past, did Worr? Their odd spawn systems may be designed as anti-RMT measures (though really it just screws over legit players that don't use a bot by removing our ability to predict spawn time and compete with the botters).

I think that is all of them for now. I will post my xml (especially for SSG) when I clean it up a little. I have a bunch of numbers after Sahagins behind the Gold beastcoin door at the moment, so it isn't very pretty and is kinda bloated.

For the moment, here is Pahh and Worr (Clawfisted) and Voll's PHs. I posted Sea Hog's on the other thread if you're interested. I'm not entirely sure of Worr, because I've never gotten him to spawn without accidentally killing both monsters and it seems his spawn time is desynchronized from when I kill the PH. If it's not the marked Sahagin in his spawn area, then it's the other one. I'm sure it's not the crab at least xD

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<ffxi-npc-name-changeset>
  <name-change id="17498426" old="Marsh Sahagin" new="Marsh Sahagin!" />
  <name-change id="17498409" old="Marsh Sahagin" new="Marsh Sahagin!" />
  <name-change id="17498338" old="Bog Sahagin" new="Bog Sahagin!" />
  <name-change id="17498332" old="Bog Sahagin" new="Bog Sahagin!" />
  <name-change id="17498345" old="Bog Sahagin" new="Bog Sahagin!" />
  <name-change id="17498411" old="Swamp Sahagin" new="Swamp Sahagin!" />
  <name-change id="17498412" old="Bog Sahagin" new="Bog Sahagin!" />
</ffxi-npc-name-changeset>

[Masamune]

I believe that multiple mobs sharing the same pop slot is actually quite common. I think it generally only occurs in dungeons. A possible rule of thumb is that an NM will be included within a grouping of mobs that can all spawn within a specific bounding box, but only some fraction of them can be up at once. I wouldn't know if there is a specific mob within a grouping that serves as a placeholder for the NM or if all mobs in that grouping serves as placeholders, but the latter seems most likely to me.

Camped Bonnacon yesterday, looks like it s working like you suggested : i could camp indefinitely if the rolling never gets an increasing chance over time for the NM to pop instead of a PH, but god the rate is slow...
3hrs later still no NM after killing ALL Buffalos religiously on pop... until just before the 4hrs mark some anon THF/bst comes, stayed around for barely 3mins not killing anything and claimed NM who popped basically on him.... Enjoy camping YAY.

[Byrthnoth]

I don't know how to say this in a way that makes more sense, but I think that every NM likely has 1 set of monsters that it can spawn from, where only one monster from the set can be spawned at any given time. So there may be 3 Buffalo in the .dats that are "Placeholders" for Bonnacon, but if you marked all of them and went out to look when no one was killing you'd would one up in game.

I'd define "Placeholder" as:
"A monster or set of mutually exclusive monsters that can spawn the Notorious Monster if killed exclusively."

So if I find 3 monsters sharing a pop spot and the Notorious Monster spawns after I kill the one of them that's up and afk for 16 minutes, then they would be placeholders.

I have yet to find a case where multiple spawned monsters can be placeholders for the Notorious Monsters, but it's hard to get negative evidence.

[Yugl]

That makes perfect sense (The concept not that it's true) in case you were worried about explaining it. You could just make it distinct by showing a table

.DAT world
Buffalo X 3x
Buffalo Y 4x
Buffalo R 9x

In game
Buffalo X 1x
Buffalo Y 2x
Buffalo R 5x

And only Buffalo Xs can spawn the NM.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, exactly. In practice, it's more like:

.dat World:
Buffalo1
Buffalo2
Buffalo3
Buffalo4
Buffalo5
Buffalo6
Buffalo7
Buffalo8
Bonnacon

Widescan when you arrive at camp:
Buffalo2
Buffalo3
Buffalo4
Buffalo5
Buffalo6
Buffalo7
Buffalo8

You kill everything and let everything repop:
Buffalo1
Buffalo2
Buffalo3
Buffalo4
Buffalo5
Buffalo6
Buffalo7

You kill everything again and let it repop:
Buffalo2
Buffalo3
Buffalo4
Buffalo5
Buffalo6
Buffalo7
Bonnacon

You follow that up by a proof of concept where you only kill Buffalo 1 or 8 until Bonnacon pops, and you've definitely found the PHs. At that point I'd replace Buffalo1 and Buffalo8 with "Buffalo!" and revert the other 6 back to their normal names.

[Mojo]

I'm not convinced that it works exactly like that in regards to dungeon NMs. I think more data would be helpful. I'm going to do the Gandiva path NMs soon so I'll make sure to record what I see there.

[Byrthnoth]

I'm not convinced that it works exactly like that in regards to dungeon NMs. I think more data would be helpful. I'm going to do the Gandiva path NMs soon so I'll make sure to record what I see there.

For Sahagin NMs, there appear to be some that spawn desynchronized from their Placeholders, and their placeholders keep spawning. Zuug the Shoreleaper, Worr the Clawfisted, and Pahh the Gullcaller all work this way.

Masan, Sea Hog, Voll the Sharkfinned, Wurr the Sandcomber, and Fyuu the Seabellow all spawn with simple replacement. I think Seww the Squidlimbed and Charybdis are also simple replacement.

Yarr the Pearleyed, Novv the Whitehearted, and Qull the Shellbuster, Denn the Orcavoiced, and Mouu the Waverider are all unknown because I either never camped them or never got them to spawn. SSG is like a treasure trove of lotto NMs.