Delve 2.0 discussion

[Fwahm]

Why were you guys being so critical of him? He wasn't trying to beat the zone using a melee strat, he was only testing whether RUN tanking would work for him, as as they didn't have rangers on at the time, they used melees.

He never said they were trying a melee strat, he never said he wasn't going to use rangers, none of that. He was testing RUN's effectiveness, nothing more. Now, granted, it wasn't a very good test, as they only got through NMs 1-4, but it was an attempt, and there's no need to attack him over it.

It's like saying that dry runs for events are useless, since "if your goal isn't to win, you suck". He was preparing for a future run that will presumably use rangers with a RUN tank (which is perfectly possible and not particularly difficult).

[Draylo]

Its the internet, there will always be assholes. Just ignore them, take what information you want and then move on.

[Kainstryder]

Why were you guys being so critical of him? He wasn't trying to beat the zone using a melee strat, he was only testing whether RUN tanking would work for him, as as they didn't have rangers on at the time, they used melees.

He never said they were trying a melee strat, he never said he wasn't going to use rangers, none of that. He was testing RUN's effectiveness, nothing more. Now, granted, it wasn't a very good test, as they only got through NMs 1-4, but it was an attempt, and there's no need to attack him over it.

It's like saying that dry runs for events are useless, since "if your goal isn't to win, you suck". He was preparing for a future run that will presumably use rangers with a RUN tank (which is perfectly possible and not particularly difficult).

My posts were informative and I posted directions on the NMs and a path/set up to avoid killing adds. Also there's little reason to "test" RUN in a melee set up, when RUN isn't going to be holding any hate whatsoever over melees; that's like having a PLD there with an all melee set up. He'll be fighting for hate, opposed to seeing if he can hold hate effectively even with RNGs and survive. If by critical you mean I asked him his plans for the other NMs and he ignored them, and thinks we're "trolling" him, ok.

[Prothescar]

Has anyone provided actual evidence on why RUN doesn't work as a tank? Melees instead of RNGs is obvious, but being haughty over using RUN instead of an Aegis PLD is ludicrously idiotic.

[NynJa]

The core thing right now is the usage of melee's, which was not mentioned in his first go through asking if run works.

[Prothescar]

I saw it mentioned a few times about the "well if you don't want to take the time to level PLD then fuck off" nonsense, but whatever, I'm not going to bother perpetuating an argument over something I already know the answer to. Was just curious to see reasoning on that whole thing.

[Kainstryder]

I'd imagine RUN works fine, the only problem being Zapdos non stop dispelling you. Can RUN negate more magic damage than an Aegis PLD without any buffs? If no, then it's inferior, but probably won't get one shot still, so as long as you have a healer or two who can constantly cure you, it should work.

A top of the line RUN I can't see failing, but a run-of-the-mill one? Yeah just get a beautific shield PLD and be done with it.

[Prothescar]

Inferiority/superiority and sufficiency are two completely different things. The difference between the damage that an Aegis PLD takes and a properly geared and buffed RUN takes is not enough to end the run. It's a dumb argument to suggest that they'd be better off shouting for a 7th person, dropping a member and adding an Aegis PLD, or forcing someone to level PLD and build a relic themselves when they already have the tools necessary for victory. Let's also ignore that RUN makes taking the aura down trivial, and nothing outside of Aura abilities is detrimental to a RUN's health.

[Raelia]

I'd imagine RUN works fine, the only problem being Zapdos non stop dispelling you. Can RUN negate more magic damage than an Aegis PLD without any buffs? If no, then it's inferior.

Runes can't be dispelled. Barspells are still quick without Val Fastcast. He attacks so slowly and his actual 'physical' hits are singe-target that even Seigeye can cover what massive thunder resist doesn't, but shadows are probably still a better plan. He doesn't dispel as often as the lion (who I love to watch eat PLDs) in the WKR version at least, not sure how much Delve amps that up but I imagine far less TP feed.

All of this does preclude tanking adds as well, as mentioned, but there are some particulars to him that do favor RUN. His AOE attacks are actually thunder damage and don't wipe third eye or shadows for instance.

[Kainstryder]

Well, I say Aegis vs RUN because with our PLD, even in best DT gear and Aegis he sometimes takes 50% from Static Prison. I'd assume a RUN would take even more damage or even worst case be 1 shot, if they were just decent and not top of the line, but I haven't seen data on it so I'm just going off a PLD. I'm not saying RUN sucks or they can't do it; they probably can, and I'm debating survivibility, not "LOL JUST GET AN AEGIS".

I never said to get a 7th or drop someone, build a relic, etc, just if RUN for them fails, a PLD with just beautific should be enough with decent gear. I'm all for RUN tanking, as I don't see why it wouldn't work, but if trial and error fails, then yeah.

@Raelia With his aura on he's constantly spamming Static Prison, sometimes to the point you throw a cure out, paralyna, shell 1 on the PLD and it's already been dispelled, rinse and repeat. This is with 4-5 RNGs, so I can't speak for 6 man.

[Prothescar]

PLD with Beatific is no different than a RUN. Anyway I'm done, no reason to continue this, especially since the main person I was questioning isn't even here.

All of this does preclude tanking adds as well, as mentioned, but there are some particulars to him that do favor RUN. His AOE attacks are actually thunder damage and don't wipe third eye or shadows for instance.

Adds aren't so bad, can pop Battuta if you have too many of them on you, and if the NM isn't dead by then you can just have the BRD sleep them while you keep hate on them. Phalanx and Stoneskin help a bit as well, but should never really reach a point where SS is necessary.

[Kainstryder]

I wasn't aware of the beautific/run thing, and the runes not being dispelable. Then I don't see any reason why RUN can't tank it.

[Fake]

Has anyone provided actual evidence on why RUN doesn't work as a tank? Melees instead of RNGs is obvious, but being haughty over using RUN instead of an Aegis PLD is ludicrously idiotic.

It does work as a tank, but its inferior to pld. A group that is already going to struggle with clearing should focus on making the easiest improvements they can to raise their chances of success.

Gearing pld to the low level required to make it vastly superior to run is an easy improvement (doesn't require you to spend relic gil or invest a large amount of time). The reason why its so much better goes beyond RUN's ability to tank just the NMs, you will waste a lot of time going around having to remove all adds off the RUN prior to each NM regardless of whether or not you use the logoff technique. Pld with mediocore gear can comfortably tank 10 adds and an NM (except harpy) and that saves valuable time.

Using RUN with melees was just flat out retarded and lead to less than serious responses.

[Prothescar]

Vastly superior how? You don't need to pull the adds off of the RUN if they do it properly. Even if it was an issue, I'd just have the BRD pull, sleep, and log hate since I don't care about missing the BRD for 15 seconds. If no BRD, just tell your RUN to nut the hell up and suck less at their job, they're making the rest of us look bad.

[Raelia]

I wasn't aware of the beautific/run thing, and the runes not being dispelable. Then I don't see any reason why RUN can't tank it.

There wasn't any. The argument was pointless because they lost for bringing melee, not RUN, but somebody was on an A/O PLD onry dickspin because that's the meta.

I think Kumhau has a lot of the same dynamic and just more power behind his stuff plus that absolutely stupid paralyze aura and a full-dispel, but runes stay up and RUN seems to have about the same paralysis rate as my DRK that I can put barbliz back up and re-shadow without even dropping into yellow most of the time; if Delvehau hits much harder than the WKR version he ain't gonna be tanked by anything. Timeframe is another factor; I did Kumhau 60%-0%, I'm sure I can handle a bit stronger version for <5 minutes.

SE has been much more sensible with this last batch compared to the first three, what with making an elemental tank and making bosses with elemental themes but giving them fucking AoE physical attacks; RUN has more capability on the latter three than the first three for sure, but the reputation is already broken.

[Darkmagi]

Kumhau2.0 dies in like 3mins tops with 3RNG in our 6man runs. Aegis PLD, but I'm sure anything that can hold it for a short period of time would work with fast shell/sacrifice.

[Prothescar]

I've said it before (maybe in this thread): the only thing I'd never consider a RUN for over a PLD is AA Hume, because he's a fucking dick and parries don't happen often enough to make up for his attack frequency. Everything else is completely doable. Inferiority and Superiority are often subjective, as most people don't run with top tier players, and some don't care about optimal efficiency (not that having a RUN instead detracts from this by an overwhelming amount). What matters here is Sufficiency. If there's no other option, or even if someone just wants to play RUN, it's a completely viable job to bring along on fights where you'd normally bring a tank. You'd be hard pressed to find a situation where RUN is so much more "squishy" than a PLD that it's detrimental to bring one along; I can't think of any off the top of my head. Comes down to the fact of the matter: tank slot is the easiest one to replace and interchange. Bad or improper DPS or healers will have a much more significant impact on the success of your delve runs than having a RUN instead of a PLD. All PLD really does is lower the overhead for healer efficiency, and that's mostly only if they have an Aegis.

[Viar]

Well two days ago I said your square peg strategy would fail for 2 weeks, you're on day 2 and dont seem to be any closer. At this point, you probably could have aby burned PLD to 99 by now.

What kind of logic is that, lol. If he wants to enter with melee, he will enter with aby burned PLD+melee and still fail. This has nothing to do with RUN.

The core thing right now is the usage of melee's

And not the use of RUN.

The reason why its so much better goes beyond RUN's ability to tank just the NMs, you will waste a lot of time going around having to remove all adds off the RUN prior to each NM regardless of whether or not you use the logoff technique. Pld with mediocore gear can comfortably tank 10 adds and an NM (except harpy) and that saves valuable time.

Time is only an issue if he is planning to clear all 6 NMs or spam that zone to sell win.If he only wants clear, it doesn't take more than 3hr to farm bead, much faster than leveling PLD and skill up + gear for it. With bead it's really hard to fail that zone, that would give the RUN party enough time to deal with adds and get clear.

[NynJa]

I think this guy has a boner for me...

"you could have aby burned your RNG to 99 by now", same principal applies. This isnt fucking WoW, have some job variety.

[Damane]

i wanted to post something but fuck it

this sums it up perfectly:

Its the internet, there will always be assholes. Just ignore them, take what information you want and then move on.

@Yeager: dont be discouraged, you can ask anytime questions.