Delve 2.0 discussion

[NynJa]

Theres nothing that say Vallation is MDT?
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Vallation

It says it stacks with MDT, not that it is MDT.

[Sechs]

Hmm, that's correct.
Which would kinda explain why RUN has it easy on Podarge, but it would also kinda mean that Ravenous Wail does indeed have an element and that such element is Wind? (because I've always been using Gelus on Podarge, to deal Ice damage and shield against Wind)

[Damane]

Yes and that would be affected by the high amounts of elemental defense RUN gets from Barspell and 3x Runes of the same type.
But it would make Vallation's reduction completely useless since it's just MDT, unless... I dunno, unless vallation is special and works for Breath damage too but I don't think that's the case.

if that is the case then AA EV aoe spirits within is considered nonelemental breath dmg? unless its a different element then light (darkness tunes did shit to reduce its dmg)

[Sechs]

We're a bit OT talking about AA EV here D: But I always assumed Arrogance Incarnate to be non elemental alligned Breath Damage. Could be Dark, which I highly doubt, but even if that were the case it wouldn't make it much easier for RUN since you need to use Umbra runes to defend against Holy2 and Light Skillchains from EV.
Breath damage *is* a form of magic damage though.
MDT may do nothing against it, but some other items that have "Magic" only in the description, work on Breath as well.
Elemental Sforzo too works against Breath Damage.
RUN can't do anything against non elemental damage... Well Vallation would give a bit of MDB but does MDB work on Breath damage?

[FaeQueenCory]

Iirc no. MDB is bypassed with breath damage...
Which is why Spirits Within and BLU's Breaths were favorable during the 75era.
Only things that reduce breath damage are BDT, DT, and the standard Meva that "reduces" all magic damage.

[Sechs]

Vallation does work on breath damage, as long as it's elemental aligned and you have the right runes up. Elemental sforzo works on breath damage too, regardless of element. Some equipment which have in description a chance to absorb or nullify "magic damage" work on breath too (including arrogance incarnate)

[dasva]

Breath damage *is* a form of magic damage though.
MDT may do nothing against it, but some other items that have "Magic" only in the description, work on Breath as well.
Elemental Sforzo too works against Breath Damage.

Not sure what you mean by that the only thing I can think of is for some reason augment items with mdt seem to work on breath dmg too and Engulfer Cape/DL stuff

Also Yugl did some testing and Chi, Mijin, Heat Breath, Spirits Within, Nether Blast, and Souleater (maybe) bypass Elemental Sforzo

Some equipment which have in description a chance to absorb or nullify "magic damage" work on breath too (including arrogance incarnate)

What equipment besides Engulfer Cape/DL stuff says chance to absorb/nullify "magic damage" without an element? And do they actually work?

[Fwahm]

Souleater isn't breath damage, though.

[dasva]

I was just copying the whole thing that one point doesn't detract from the rest of the statement...

Plus has anyone tested it since the whole make nms resistant to it thing? Because most NMs have huge bdts and I'd imagine it would be much easier to just make it breath dmg than to somehow make the game still apply physical modifiers to it but at the same time have a separate resistance just to that portion of the dmg

[Sechs]

cut

I meant exactely the items you mentioned.
I said "some" thinking about those, thinking there might be more that I don't know about, I didn't say "all items"
Elemental Sforzo works against Arrogance Incarnate, which in theory is non-elemental alligned Breath Damage, as far as I know.
Honestly haven't tried or read tests against Spirits Within, Chi Blast etc, but if Yugl said they do not work with Elemental Sforzo I trust that. Wonder why Arrogance Incarnate is the "exception" here then?

[Sephiran]

I meant exactely the items you mentioned.
I said "some" thinking about those, thinking there might be more that I don't know about, I didn't say "all items"
Elemental Sforzo works against Arrogance Incarnate, which in theory is non-elemental alligned Breath Damage, as far as I know.
Honestly haven't tried or read tests against Spirits Within, Chi Blast etc, but if Yugl said they do not work with Elemental Sforzo I trust that. Wonder why Arrogance Incarnate is the "exception" here then?

It is important to note that certain things just have strange absorbance/resistance patterns. There are things that will allow non-elemental magic damage through but absorb non-elemental breath damage like the T3 AVNM in Attowha. It is entirely possible that RUN SP1 absorbs damage from all elemental magic damage, non-elemental breath damage, but not non-elemental magic damage. Furthermore, it is even possible that the form of accuracy (physical, magical, special) affects whether or not RUN SP1 negates the damage.

[Sechs]

As much as descriptions from SE aren't always accurate, the Elemental Sforzo one says "Grants immunity to all magic attacks".
Which is pretty vague since we know that SE sometimes includes breath damage into the definition of "Magic".

I'm pretty sure Elemental Sforzo works against all forms of magic, debuffs included, wether they're elemental or not. It works against Meteor and other non elemental alligned magic for sure.
I tried to find again the post + screenshot on FFXIAH showing Elemental Scherzo working on Arrogance Incarnate but I couldn't find anything. Just people discussing about it and some dumb claim with no proof.
I'm leaning to think I misread something and that Elemental Sforzo does not work on any breath damage based move, including Arrogance Incarnate.
Vallation/Valiance of course do work against Breath Damage, as long as it's elemental alligned.

[/OT]

[Prothescar]

easy enough to test if it works on elemental breaths, go use it on Kur and see if it blocks his breaths. his attacks are used in a set pattern, so it isnt hard to time it. also, monster version of Meteor isn't non elemental, but whatever.

[FaeQueenCory]

Vallation does work on breath damage, as long as it's elemental aligned and you have the right runes up. Elemental sforzo works on breath damage too, regardless of element. Some equipment which have in description a chance to absorb or nullify "magic damage" work on breath too (including arrogance incarnate)

If Vallation decreases breath damage... Of which I haven't tested (one would also have to remember to account for the Meva from the runes too).
This would then indicate that the damage reduction isn't a MDB addition, but, like Barrier Tusk, would be a unique and extra "MDT" effect.
Because MDB is bypassed by breath damage... And it wouldn't really surprise me if it was a new effect similar to Barrier Tusk.

[dasva]

If Vallation decreases breath damage... Of which I haven't tested (one would also have to remember to account for the Meva from the runes too).
This would then indicate that the damage reduction isn't a MDB addition, but, like Barrier Tusk, would be a unique and extra "MDT" effect.
Because MDB is bypassed by breath damage... And it wouldn't really surprise me if it was a new effect similar to Barrier Tusk.

Well vallation definitely isn't MDB and I don't think there is any precedent for something that isn't mdb but is calculated the same way. If it does work on breathes as well I'd guess it would be more like an SDT somewhat like you suggested.

[Karizo]

As much as descriptions from SE aren't always accurate, the Elemental Sforzo one says "Grants immunity to all magic attacks".
Which is pretty vague since we know that SE sometimes includes breath damage into the definition of "Magic".

I'm pretty sure Elemental Sforzo works against all forms of magic, debuffs included, wether they're elemental or not. It works against Meteor and other non elemental alligned magic for sure.
I tried to find again the post + screenshot on FFXIAH showing Elemental Scherzo working on Arrogance Incarnate but I couldn't find anything. Just people discussing about it and some dumb claim with no proof.
I'm leaning to think I misread something and that Elemental Sforzo does not work on any breath damage based move, including Arrogance Incarnate.
Vallation/Valiance of course do work against Breath Damage, as long as it's elemental alligned.

[/OT]

Isn't this related to the dark ring augment bug where MDT contributes to BDT? so basically if you have a perfect 6/6/6 ring, you essentially have 12 BDT.

[Sechs]

Well vallation definitely isn't MDB and I don't think there is any precedent for something that isn't mdb but is calculated the same way. If it does work on breathes as well I'd guess it would be more like an SDT somewhat like you suggested.

Quoting you but answering FaeQueen too.

Vallation DOES give MDB too, but that's a merit category, and as far as I've been told MDB doesn't affect Breath Damage.
The basic effect of Vallation instead is a % damage reduction according to the number and types of runes you have up the moment you use Vallation.
The key factor here that creates the difference with Elemental Sforzo is that this one nullifies magic damage (regardless of element), and doesn't work on breath damage.
The Vallation DT reduction is based on element affinity and does work on everything, breath damage included if it's elemental-alligned.
I think it's something unique, since as far as it's been tested it stacks with all other forms of damage reduction currently in game.

[dasva]

Vallation DOES give MDB too, but that's a merit category, and as far as I've been told MDB doesn't affect Breath Damage.

Did they change it? Because when I tested it and retested it to see if they fixed it, it clearly was just part of vallation effect. Though it was broken in that it was only giving 1% per merit per 3 runes used instead of 1 per merit per rune. And no neither mab nor mdb effect breath...

[Sechs]

It should be 1 MDB per merit per rune. So with 5/5 and 3 runes it should be 15 MDB. I wasn't even aware it was broken tbh, I apologize for my ignorance I guess lol

[dasva]

Yes but when did they change it? When I tested it, it wasn't mdb and I see no links to other testing to say it is. It just added onto vallation to bring it up to -50% with 3 runes (instead of the -60% it should be by the description). Or maybe someone just thought mdb because that's what the description says?