Job Points discussion

[Sechs]

Uhm... a bit OT maybe but the hell is a strawman? I mean, I know the meaning of the word, but clearly it has another meaning in this context and I cannot grasp it.
Strawmanning? lolwut?

[Prothescar]

He's misrepresenting what Yugl is saying. Did it to me earlier a couple of times, too. Pretty much the definition of the argumentative fallacy version of "straw man". In the UK I know it's called something else, but not sure what. You'd prolly be more familiar with that term.

[Sechs]

So it kinda means to read something that's not there in the words someone else said, only to prove your own argument right?
That's "strawmanning"?
Makes more sense this way for the last pages of this thread xD

Sorry lol, english not my ML, think this is the first time I read about this, that I can remember.

[Prothescar]

Pretty much. You misrepresent someone's argument and attempt to win the false argument. The only time it ever works is if everyone else reading the argument is ignorant of the context or substance of the argument, though. i.e., very rarely. It's what we'd call a "transparent argument".

http://mentalunlockdown.com/wp-conte...ow-300x218.png

[dasva]

It only took 5 years for Tourbillion to be fixed, if not more?.

I don't think it's actually fixed yet just that they said they will look into it. Though I think now with super ilvl macc skill from weapons you can sometimes land it on eps lol

[NynJa]

So it kinda means to read something that's not there in the words someone else said, only to prove your own argument right?
That's "strawmanning"?
Makes more sense this way for the last pages of this thread xD

Sorry lol, english not my ML, think this is the first time I read about this, that I can remember.

Sure, except I QUOTED their very posts without editing anything, so its not like I'm putting words in someone elses mouth. These entitled babies think they should be able to cap all JP by waving their cock at a wild rabbit in ronfaure.

Remember guys, any statement or numbers or opinion these guys use can ONLY be used to their benefit, never against them.



I mean its just fucking hilarious that some people actually think SE wasnt going to tinker with job point acquisition and really think that their complaints in 48 hours really handcuffed SE into going "wow we have to fix this". Its really hilarious. Tell me again, how many bug reports were issued about blue magic add effects and WS add effects not taking effect? How many years now has that been a bug?

[Seha]

Your way of inflating other people's opinions to make yours look better is ridiculous. For example:

These entitled babies think they should be able to cap all JP by waving their cock at a wild rabbit in ronfaure.

And it isn't the first.

[NynJa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

tough concept

[Seha]

That's not sarcasm. You keep treating people on the opposite side as if they expect to cap in a day. Not sure if you're just stupid at this point.

[Motenten]

Uhm... a bit OT maybe but the hell is a strawman? I mean, I know the meaning of the word, but clearly it has another meaning in this context and I cannot grasp it.
Strawmanning? lolwut?

Person A says X.

Person B takes X and presents it as if person A said Y (either by taking a subset of the original statement out of context, exaggerating the meaning of what was said, drawing a false conclusion from the original statement, or various other means).

Person B argues against Y, and by showing Y is wrong, claims that person A is wrong.


The intended imagery: Supposing you have two fencers who are about to cross swords in a duel. However one of them instead attacks a training dummy (often a wooden pole with straw attached, made to look roughly man-shaped; thus, "straw man") rather than his opponent, and then claims to have won the battle.

[scaevola]

Sure, except I QUOTED their very posts without editing anything, so its not like I'm putting words in someone elses mouth. These entitled babies think they should be able to cap all JP by waving their cock at a wild rabbit in ronfaure.

Remember guys, any statement or numbers or opinion these guys use can ONLY be used to their benefit, never against them.



I mean its just fucking hilarious that some people actually think SE wasnt going to tinker with job point acquisition and really think that their complaints in 48 hours really handcuffed SE into going "wow we have to fix this". Its really hilarious. Tell me again, how many bug reports were issued about blue magic add effects and WS add effects not taking effect? How many years now has that been a bug?

My position here has always been that when SE shits the bed on the numbers as they have here (and have in the past e.g. 99 RMEs) it's because it honestly doesn't occur to them how long it would actually take. See also: mythics explicitly conceived as the casual alternative to relics.

Sometimes they fix it and sometimes they don't, but if these silly effort/reward ratios truly come from a place of ignorance (the only other possibility is contempt) then the only way it will ever get fixed is if players explain what they are and are not willing to do for Fake Numbers. And this, my friend; this is bullshit. Dozens of hours for +5 STR was bullshit, too, but

1) Merit parties were necessary to recap XP at the time so there was actually a worthwhile reason to encourage them other than killing time,

2) Merits were followed pretty closely by ToAU and in any case nobody even thought about capping merits until Greater Colibri HNNNNGGG so your deco weapon point is a LIIIIITTLE disingenuous, and

3) Stat gains were intentionally supergrindy and were supposed to be the last thing you did. Combat/magic skills and Group 1 & 2 job merits were much tamer and were like 90% of the benefit of the system, and EVEN THEN, with most people barely touching STR merits, people kept merit parties going right up to Abyssea. The grind didn't need to be insane to remain relevant for a half a decade.

If you've so completely given up on doing anything else with your free time that hundreds of hours spent killing crabs seems like NBD then I really don't know what to say to you, other than the same old tired You Could Be Learning a Trade.

TLDR:

I mean its just fucking hilarious that some people actually think SE wasnt going to tinker with job point acquisition

What is your basis for thinking the presented tempo for JP acquisition is not the intended one? Again, what interest is served by creating an abusive JP system with every intention to quickly replace it with a better one, other than cynical manipulation of the playerbase?

[banggugyangu]

My position here has always been that when SE shits the bed on the numbers as they have here (and have in the past e.g. 99 RMEs) it's because it honestly doesn't occur to them how long it would actually take. See also: mythics explicitly conceived as the casual alternative to relics.

Sometimes they fix it and sometimes they don't, but if these silly effort/reward ratios truly come from a place of ignorance (the only other possibility is contempt) then the only way it will ever get fixed is if players explain what they are and are not willing to do for Fake Numbers. And this, my friend; this is bullshit. Dozens of hours for +5 STR was bullshit, too, but

1) Merit parties were necessary to recap XP at the time so there was actually a worthwhile reason to encourage them other than killing time,

2) Merits were followed pretty closely by ToAU and in any case nobody even thought about capping merits until Greater Colibri HNNNNGGG so your deco weapon point is a LIIIIITTLE disingenuous, and

3) Stat gains were intentionally supergrindy and were supposed to be the last thing you did. Combat/magic skills and Group 1 & 2 job merits were much tamer and were like 90% of the benefit of the system, and EVEN THEN, with most people barely touching STR merits, people kept merit parties going right up to Abyssea. The grind didn't need to be insane to remain relevant for a half a decade.

If you've so completely given up on doing anything else with your free time that hundreds of hours spent killing crabs seems like NBD then I really don't know what to say to you, other than the same old tired You Could Be Learning a Trade.

TLDR:



What is your basis for thinking the presented tempo for JP acquisition is not the intended one? Again, what interest is served by creating an abusive JP system with every intention to quickly replace it with a better one, other than cynical manipulation of the playerbase?

I feel this was extremely well said on all points. I seriously doubt anyone is expecting or hoping JP would be capped in a day, or even a few days. A person should not, however, have to spend hours upon hours for a single JP. It's another example of a bad implementation of a good idea. FFXI has been littered with them over the years (evoliths, completely random original augmentation system, original PUP AI). Hopefully they'll realize how stupid it is right now and bring it to a more reasonable investment:reward ratio.

[NynJa]

Except SE has already stated that the system is a work in progress and it will be tweaked, and no it was NOT bitching in this thread that caused it.

[scaevola]

Except SE has already stated that the system is a work in progress and it will be tweaked, and no it was NOT bitching in this thread that caused it.

Well, yeah, it was immediate bitching on the Japanese OF that provoked a response, which was the "we're monitoring it closely" response they always give when they're conceding they screwed up.

What exactly are you objecting to, here? The idea that this is an unreasonable grind? That people are complaining about it? Even at the 32k/hour Ihina's reporting*, that's still upwards of 500 hours of fairly intense (and targeted! and boring!) grinding to cap an enhancement at 30. If you think that's okay you are from the fucking moon, brother. It is a fatal problem for this system. There is no meaningful discussion to be had about Job Points - in the Job Point Thread or elsewhere - while our best, least-speculative impression of the JP system is that it is a thing where you kill crabs for 500 hours to get -30% damage taken on circle effects.




*concerned about mob availability for multiple people going at that clip, honestly

[dasva]

Again, what interest is served by creating an abusive JP system with every intention to quickly replace it with a better one, other than cynical manipulation of the playerbase?

An ingenious way of making it look like they really listen and respond quickly to player input!!! Possibly to test the waters to. ie to see just how much of an artificial time sink we are willing to accept.

[dasva]

that's still upwards of 500 hours of fairly intense (and targeted! and boring!) grinding to cap an enhancement at 30.If you think that's okay you are from the fucking moon, brother. It is a fatal problem for this system. There is no meaningful discussion to be had about Job Points - in the Job Point Thread or elsewhere - while our best, least-speculative impression of the JP system is that it is a thing where you kill crabs for 500 hours to get -30% damage taken on circle effects

That's still an unknown worst case scenario prediction... not really sure we should really keep using it as if it was definitely what it will be or call it the least-speculative impression lol. At least until it is confirmed

[Ihina]

I think the issue is that people want to be capped.

If SE didn't put a cap on the job point system and the cost just kept going up with every level, I wonder if people will still have the same complaints. Imagine getting from level100 to level101 will take 101 job points. I imagine most people would just roll their eyes and say they're never going to do it; I doubt 99% of people would get beyond 10 or so. However, since SE put a cap on it, people seem to demand that they must be able to do it, and within a reasonable amount of time.

The psychology behind that is interesting.

[scaevola]

That's still an unknown worst case scenario prediction... not really sure we should really keep using it as if it was definitely what it will be or call it the least-speculative impression lol. At least until it is confirmed

JP will enhance better abilities than circle effects down the line, certainly, but there is no reason to think those enhancements won't be as trivial as the ones we have right now. After all, circle effects being largely useless doesn't mean SE couldn't have made the enhancements to them more attractive (like a 1% increase/rank to all three aspects, not just -DT) if they wanted to.

[kasain]

I admit the grind is bad. They can add exp rings or papers to events to give out cps. Many jobs complain about no good cp to spend points on. But se will most likely release one or two new things per job every month. These will most likely be based on job traits, job abilities or magic.

As a blu I have unlocked six new points. 66 set points. Every step of the way I have seen my spell list change and I feel a sense of growth and ackomplishment. I hope in time more jobs will feel the same. I do hope there is a cap at some point to lvl up.

[scaevola]

I think the issue is that people want to be capped.

The issue is that SE expects us to get excited about a system where we spend more time punching crabs than it would take to make a mythic for -30% DT on circle effects or +300 Automaton HP.

I mean, capping an enhancement could straight up make you like 25% more powerful and this grind still wouldn't be worth it - not really - but where we stand right now there is just no meaningful conversation to be had about this.

If SE didn't put a cap on the job point system and the cost just kept going up with every level, I wonder if people will still have the same complaints. Imagine getting from level100 to level101 will take 101 job points. I imagine most people would just roll their eyes and say they're never going to do it; I doubt 99% of people would get beyond 10 or so. However, since SE put a cap on it, people seem to demand that they must be able to do it, and within a reasonable amount of time.

The psychology behind that is interesting.

The only interesting psychology here is how you seem to think that this isn't a mistake and therefore SE is literally just fucking with your head out of pure contempt and yet manage to not seem particularly bothered by it. That's super fucked up, buddy!