Not without my ovaries.

[RKenshin]

For example, I'd hate to see a situation where someone gets fired or doesn't get insurance payout just because they failed to take the free contraceptives they were provided, or where a woman gets placed in a position where she's forced to choose between her work or an abortion because abortions are free. Do you honestly believe situations like that won't happen?

What?

I think it's safe to say that the first company that tried to fire someone for not having an abortion, would be sued into oblivion.

What precedent are you getting this from, exactly? There are already plenty of companies that offer no-cost and/or no-copay insurance policies, and I've never heard of any company essentially saying that "you either get X medical procedure done or we fire you"; nevermind something as controversial as an abortion.

[BaneTheBrawler]

yeah, uzor, that's fucking insane. insurance coverage does not equal an obligation to use that coverage. thats how insurance companies make money.

[Cliron]

Level 3 Stuff

I really appreciate your interest in this, its obvious you are strongly opinionated and are coming to this discussion with "good" intentions.

Generally, your argument just conveys a lack of understanding on the topic area. I'd liken it to you 'getting' Algebra in high school and then trying to discuss it with Math PhDs.

I'd love to reference a specific book or article that you could read up on but nothing is coming to mind.

Generally I'd look at stuff like : economics, mental health, healthcare, poverty, stigma, role of women in society, labour disparities (hopefully someone can condense this list better).

Please also be very cognizant of the difference between the U.S and the world. Ye're not inventing the wheel here guys, most other nations have been at this for a lot longer with a lot of data to draw from.

[Uzor]

1) The mental anguish women experience is mostly self-inflicted, but it's self-inflicted because our society has so many people that feel so strongly that abortion is some awful, terrible crime and you're a terrible, awful person if you ever have one. I look at women who regret their abortions the same as gays who regretted accepting their sexual orientation due to backlash on coming out. Yes it sucks for the women right now, but as society progresses, the mental anguish will no longer be a factor. The more people who resist the push to conform to society's current standards, the faster we'll progress. You're not helping society progress with your thoughts on abortion and contraceptives, unfortunately.

I live in Sweden. There's nothing in Swedish society that says a woman should be ashamed of getting an abortion, and no one here except for a very small minority of religious fanatics that no one listens to thinks that abortion is a terrible crime. The mental anguish my friends felt is - according to them - because they felt a maternal connection to the fetus, even though they were less than 12 weeks in to the pregnancy.

2) Women already have to choose between family life and their careers. That choice explains something like 80-90% of the mythical wage gap between men and women. If you don't want women to have to make this choice, then tell your congressmen and senators to adopt more family-oriented labor laws. Other 1st world countries have maternal and paternal leave that put the U.S.'s to absolute shame.

Oh, I know, I'm from one of those countries. In Sweden, both parents often take a year of parental leave each. We have the opposite problem, where there's occasionally discussions about whether fathers should be forced to take paternal leave in order to make it more equal between the genders - which in my opinion is a horrible idea since not all families can afford both parents taking parental leave, as men usually earn the most money.

3) You're fucking insane if you think the government is telling anyone they must get abortions or use contraception. Personally I'm 100% for government-regulated breeding (to prevent Idiocracy from becoming reality), but the government absolutely isn't doing that at the moment, and laws regarding health insurance and abortion/contraceptive coverage isn't a step towards that in the least.

Not the government, companies. A lot of companies sadly don't give a fuck about their employees, and do whatever is best for themselves and stockholders.

I agree 100% that we need less children in the world, but I don't think it should be done through laws of any kind.

And yes, I'm aware that there's differences between the U.S and the world, but U.S still has humans in it, and companies. A lot of humans (and companies) are greedy and egoistical. If there is a way to abuse the system they will, and a law like this could potentially open up to a lot of abuse. Yes, it could do a lot of good, too, but that's the problem with the world. The most harm sometimes comes from the best of intentions. I'm more-so against abortion being included (which it isn't) than contraceptives.

[Blubbartron]

I live in Sweden. There's nothing in Swedish society that says a woman should be ashamed of getting an abortion, and no one here except for a very small minority of religious fanatics that no one listens to thinks that abortion is a terrible crime. The mental anguish my friends felt is - according to them - because they felt a maternal connection to the fetus, even though they were less than 12 weeks in to the pregnancy.

Now that you mention it, I recall you saying you're from Sweden before. My bad for the assumption before. This is still weird though. How can a person form an emotional attachment to life that they've never interacted with? Forming an emotional bond with a 12 weeks GA fetus is like forming an emotional bond with a tapeworm that you're sustaining. The concept is ridiculous. I think it's more likely that they experienced severe depression due to hormones going haywire, or that there's some other aspect of Swedish culture that I (or you) don't understand.

Oh, I know, I'm from one of those countries. In Sweden, both parents often take a year of parental leave each. We have the opposite problem, where there's occasionally discussions about whether fathers should be forced to take paternal leave in order to make it more equal between the genders - which in my opinion is a horrible idea since not all families can afford both parents taking parental leave, as men usually earn the most money.

According to the wiki:

Sweden provides working parents with an entitlement of 13 months paid leave per child at 77.6% of the employee's monthly salary (up to a ceiling of about $3,400 per month (2013)), the cost being shared between employer and the state.[5] In addition, parents also are entitled to an additional 90 days of leave at approximately $25 per day. Out of the total of 480 days paid parental leave, 60 days are reserved exclusively for each parent and are lost if not utilized. It should be noted that the paid days include weekends. Thus, 480 days is equal to about 16 months.

It's not unpaid leave (I'm hoping you were aware of this - I'm mostly educating other people who may have assumed Sweden was like our FMLA, where it's unpaid leave). Losing ~23% of your gross income is a little harsh, but it's over a year of not having to work. If both parents worked, would they not expect to use a significant portion of that "lost" money in order to hire nannies/babysitters/daycare/whatever? If they can't afford to simply exist while raising a child on ~77% of their normal income, how can they expect to exist on their full income including the expenses for 3rd party caregivers? If their finances are that bad off, perhaps they shouldn't have had a child.

Not the government, companies. A lot of companies sadly don't give a fuck about their employees, and do whatever is best for themselves and stockholders.

True, but no law in either Sweden or the U.S. can tell people whether to have children or not. The point is moot.

I agree 100% that we need less children in the world, but I don't think it should be done through laws of any kind.

It's not that we need fewer children; it's that we need stupid, uneducated, financially unfit people to have fewer (or no children). It's a sad irony that educated, successful people wait longer and have fewer children as a result of thinking rationally.

[Aksannyi]

How can a person form an emotional attachment to life that they've never interacted with? Forming an emotional bond with a 12 weeks GA fetus is like forming an emotional bond with a tapeworm that you're sustaining. The concept is ridiculous.

Granted neither of my kids were unwanted, but I will tell you that in my experience, your assumption is wrong. Now I have no idea what it's like to have an unwanted pregnancy so I don't know, but knowing that you have a life growing inside you (let's not debate on when life begins, you know what I mean, obviously it's a budding life if not quite a life) is kind of awe-inspiring and it doesn't take much to have some maternal bond.

Am I every woman? No, of course not. Am I able to speak for every woman? No, of course not. But as a woman who has had two pregnancies, I find it highly possible that women can form an emotional attachment to a fetus even at the early phase of the pregnancy.

[Uzor]

It's not unpaid leave (I'm hoping you were aware of this - I'm mostly educating other people who may have assumed Sweden was like our FMLA, where it's unpaid leave). Losing ~23% of your gross income is a little harsh, but it's over a year of not having to work. If both parents worked, would they not expect to use a significant portion of that "lost" money in order to hire nannies/babysitters/daycare/whatever? If they can't afford to simply exist while raising a child on ~77% of their normal income, how can they expect to exist on their full income including the expenses for 3rd party caregivers? If their finances are that bad off, perhaps they shouldn't have had a child.

No, it's not unpaid leave. although it's more equal in Sweden between men and women, there's still a lot of families where the mother does not work, and for them it can be devastating if the father is forced to take paternal leave. Sadly, it is also a fact that in Sweden, too, men earn more than women even in the same line of work. Unemployment rate amongst young people is quite high in Sweden, and a lot of young people work part-time, and for them it can be damaging if they both have to take parental leave. Most people that can afford to do it usually have the mother take the first year and the father the second year, as that doesn't damage their economy as badly. It's quite amusing, we have a phenomenon in Sweden with fathers sitting in parks with their kids, or walking with a friend with strollers. It's a phenomenon you don't see in many other countries.

Still, living in Sweden can be quite expensive. My apartment's rent alone for example is at 1544 USD a month, and I in no way live in a fancy area, although I suppose my rent is not "normal" either considering I live in a new house, which increases the rent a bit. Food for 1 person is at roughly 231 USD a month if you want to eat decent, and that's assuming you never eat out.

Edit: For the first kid you also get roughly $162 a month from the government to support the kid, which I suppose is important to point out when comparing costs.

[Blubbartron]

Granted neither of my kids were unwanted, but I will tell you that in my experience, your assumption is wrong. Now I have no idea what it's like to have an unwanted pregnancy so I don't know, but knowing that you have a life growing inside you (let's not debate on when life begins, you know what I mean, obviously it's a budding life if not quite a life) is kind of awe-inspiring and it doesn't take much to have some maternal bond.

Am I every woman? No, of course not. Am I able to speak for every woman? No, of course not. But as a woman who has had two pregnancies, I find it highly possible that women can form an emotional attachment to a fetus even at the early phase of the pregnancy.

I'm sure the women Uzor is talking about did feel as if they had a bond, as I'm sure you felt the same at some point along the pregnancy. I just wonder how much of that is actually a biological/neurological "real" bond, as opposed to a sociological "imagined" bond. I use quotes because the human mind is capable of amazing things if it believes something strongly enough (like women who think they're pregnant spontaneously lactating), and society is pretty fucking great at telling people what to think.

Personally, I'm convinced that abortion is harder on women that have accepted the stereotypical gender roles for women (as nurturer/care giver), or conventional societal attitudes regarding children (children are cute/amazing/precious/like omg when are you going to settle down/etc). If you have no reverence for children to begin with, destroying a potential child should be meaningless to you. The same way that no one bonds with the tumor they're growing, nor does anyone regret having it excised for their own personal benefit.

[Uzor]

Personally, I'm convinced that abortion is harder on women that have accepted the stereotypical gender roles for women (as nurturer/care giver), or conventional societal attitudes regarding children (children are cute/amazing/precious/like omg when are you going to settle down/etc). If you have no reverence for children to begin with, destroying a potential child should be meaningless to you. The same way that no one bonds with the tumor they're growing, nor does anyone regret having it excised for their own personal benefit.

I'm sure it is harder for women that have accepted the stereotypical gender role, but I wouldn't say that abortion is meaningless to women that hasn't. For one of my friends though (my cousin, to be precise), she didn't even want kids, and happened to get pregnant even though she was on the pill and used a condom (don't even start with the odds of that happening, I'm quite amazed at it myself). She was still affected by it greatly, to the point that she seriously contemplated going through with with the pregnancy and give it up for adoption. She eventually made up her mind and decided to get an abortion as she was worried she wouldn't be able to give it up for adoption, and, as I said, she didn't want kids. Her being pregnant did change her views about kids though, and after the abortion she became depressed, and still occasionally regrets not going through with the pregnancy - even though she's still adamant about not wanting kids.

I'm sure a woman can explain it better than I can, but my point is that just because you don't want kids or haven't accepted the typical "female" stereotype, doesn't mean abortion won't affect you or is a piece of cake. I'm sure it is to some people. Hell, some mothers doesn't even give a fuck about their born kids.

[Psion]

I'm surprised blubbatron is trying to assume that humans are completely rational creatures. We are creatures of reason, yes, but we are also creatures of emotion, and just because something doesn't "make sense" doesn't make it any less real for the person experiencing it.

Heck, just read some yahoo articles comment sections and you will rather rapidly be shed of that view.

People form emotional attachments to things all the time, regardless of how reasonable it may be. It's the reason some people are compulsive hoarders, unable to let go of the emotional bonds they formed with the items they've collected over the years. it's why why personify things like roombas, bumbling about along floors mindlessly, yet in an adorable enough way that owners of them often name them and act like they have their own personal quirks, even though rationally they understand it's just an unthinking, unfeeling machine. It's why women can form emotional bonds to a clump of cells growing in their womb even when it doesn't yet have a human form or a mind to think with. You might not be able to understand how it's possible, because your body, at least as far as i know of, isn't capable of carrying a new life into the world. (if my assumption is wrong, please forgive me.) I know it's not possible for me, but even though rationally i'd be glad to never want kids, there's still something almost magical about being able to create new life, even if you didn't want it. As a human, it's pretty much impossible not to be affected at all by the power of that knowledge, because as humans, we are creatures of reason and emotion both.

[Clash Perez]

I'm still boggling at the idea that free contraception/abortion equates to forced contraception/abortion.

[Aksannyi]

I'm still boggling at the idea that free contraception/abortion equates to forced contraception/abortion.

The same way that pro-lifers believe that pro-choice means pro-abortion and abortions for all. General lack of understanding.

[Ksandra]

On phone so not multi quoting. I apologize ahead of time if I end up being confusing, but wanted to touch on a few points.

@Uzor you said you are for schools giving out free contraceptions but not adults. Getting a diploma doesn't inject people with maturity and a low libido. Twenty year olds still fuck like rabbits, and don't have sense about protection. We give 18 year olds adult rights, but that doesn't mean they are fully fledged mature ones. 18 is just a number, everyone is different and the brain is not fully done until we are about 25 (and even then there are a fuckton of immature people when it comes to sex.

@blubber, the emotional attachment is biological. Iirc it comes from the body warning you something is wrong. It doesn't know you did it on purpose. That is why phantom pregnancies and postpartum depression are so common. I would not be surprised if animals get it too. Nature has to tell you that you are not pregnant anymore, and does it on a way that encourages you to try again (aka miss the feeling of being pregnant).

as to your comment about maternity and paternity leave, I think this is the first time in BG history I have agreed with you. My husband has one more week of paternity leave left, and I hate that. It is insane how much more I could get done with him here to help me. Especially when we have a toddler an the baby is on my tit around the clock.

[Uzor]

I'm still boggling at the idea that free contraception/abortion equates to forced contraception/abortion.

Which is not what I said. I said that making a law that gives free contraceptives through insurance you get from your work runs the risk of companies abusing it. Not that making a law that gives out free contraceptives forces everyone to use contraceptives. There's a big difference between the two. If companies don't abuse it, then yes, it is a good idea. But if they do abuse it, then no, it's a horrible idea. And considering how horrible some companies (not all, though) are, it would not surprise me if they take the opportunity to abuse it. It runs the risk of women being discriminated against more, it is not a guarantee.

@Uzor you said you are for schools giving out free contraceptions but not adults. Getting a diploma doesn't inject people with maturity and a low libido. Twenty year olds still fuck like rabbits, and don't have sense about protection. We give 18 year olds adult rights, but that doesn't mean they are fully fledged mature ones. 18 is just a number, everyone is different and the brain is not fully done until we are about 25 (and even then there are a fuckton of immature people when it comes to sex.

I'm well aware that people don't stop having sex in their twenties, but it's better to teach and encourage them at a low age as to make it a habit. Odds are adults will have a higher disposable income than teenagers do to buy contraceptives, and teen pregnancies can really fuck up the lives of teenagers, putting them in a worse position later in life as it can affect their studies.

Of course, there are poor people that honestly can not afford contraceptives, and it's tough luck for them. But there's much better ways to increase their standard of living than providing them with free contraceptives.

[Eurell]

Let them take that risk so someone can sue the fuck out of them.

[Clash Perez]

I don't think anyone but you sees that as an appreciable risk.

I won't claim to speak for everyone, but for me that's like saying you don't fly in airplanes because you're not willing to take the chance of it being that one in five million who dies.

[Ksandra]

Odds are adults will have a higher disposable income than teenagers do to buy contraceptives,

you think people who don't have to pay for for shit have less of a disposable income than people who have rent, food, utilities, etc. ? Be logical.

teen pregnancies can really fuck up the lives of teenagers, putting them in a worse position later in life as it can affect their studies.

so only teenagers go to school?

Of course, there are poor people that honestly can not afford contraceptives, and it's tough luck for them. But there's much better ways to increase their standard of living than providing them with free contraceptives.

whynotboth.jpg

[dejet]

ITT: A man trying to tell women how to handle their vaginas and what goes in/out of them.

I side with you till you say everyone should pay for it. Shut up really that argument is worthless here unless you pay for it. And then your off topic.

[Clash Perez]

Meanwhile, Viagra is covered by insurance.

[Uzor]

you think people who don't have to pay for for shit have less of a disposable income than people who have rent, food, utilities, etc. ? Be logical.

Yes, a lot of teenagers don't work, and a lot of them don't get any allowance from their parents. And some are embarrassed or afraid to buy it.

so only teenagers go to school?

No, but an 18/19 year old is still a teenager. In Sweden, for example, you get free dental care as a kid, and that applies until and including the year you turn 20. When I say teenager and adult it doesn't necessarily start the day you turn 18. You can't buy alcohol until you're 21, so could put it there. Or he'll, could do free contraceptives until you're 25 even, that gives you plenty of time to get your life together without having to worry about kids.

Meanwhile, Viagra is covered by insurance.

I'm not defending it, but I'm guessing it's because it's an actual medical issue, whereas condoms are not.