ATTN HR: Stop factoring in "experience" when looking for candidates.

[Meresgi]

http://blog.hackerearth.com/2014/04/...xperience.html

In many world cultures, experience is revered. There are so many things, that only time can bring – maturity, calmness, expertise etc etc. Human resources extrapolates this to organisational structure too. The whitest heads are at the top of the organisation and the youngest ones learn the ropes by working in entry and mid level jobs.

The reason for this practice is closely related to education. If you look at the system today, you’re learning broad, general things at the undergraduate level. The requirements of industry are based on the concepts taught in college, but require more specific expertise to perform a job. Hence a new recruit is put through a training process, and with work experience, the candidate grows.

Good right up, thought about putting in the tech forum but it can apply to more then just IT professionals.

I have to agree, most of what i'm doing currently in my B.S degree is shit I have learned on my own just from being curious, and there are so many students that I have worked with or professionals I have dealt with that lack that curiosity which I think is fundamental to succeeding, especially in IT.

Especially since the scope of a lot of things changes so quickly, one of the reasons why I think a CISSP shouldn't be held to such a high value as it is. It's outdated, you can't have a test like that with cyber security as the focus, and not update the ENTIRE thing at least twice a year or more.

Hell most of the security people I know have never gone to college, they just learned on their own how to reverse malware, backdoor and break into websites.

[Xajii]

This is an exceedingly poorly written blog post that can't even wrap its head around the point it is trying to make.

People look for experience and longevity of prior work history in part to assess your capability to be a reliable, consistent employee. When I look at people's resumes for my job and I see someone who has little experience, it stands out as a risk off the bat, because it doesn't tell me much about whether they're fit for a corporate environment or for any type of work, really. It's also why I have to ask questions when I see a resume where the person jumped around, spending a few weeks or months at a job then onto the next one (in lateral moves, more often than not).

Yes, of course there are a lot of people in the working world who have the capability to perform work that they will not be hired for yet. That's because you have to prove yourself.

[Abandon]

[NynJa]

Theres one thing to see if someone has had 5 different jobs in 2 years, and its a very different thing to say "must have 7 years experience in this field to qualify for the job", which is kinda like, fuck you.

[Blubbartron]

My favorite is entry level positions that require experience. I can't tell if it's companies being intentionally dishonest to try and influence the power dynamic to make talented, educated (although inexperienced) people accept shittier salaries, or if the HR/Management at these places are so massively retarded that they honestly can't see the conflict in terms.

[BaneTheBrawler]

my dad has always said to apply to entry level positions like that anyway. worst case they say no.

[Meresgi]

This is an exceedingly poorly written blog post that can't even wrap its head around the point it is trying to make.

People look for experience and longevity of prior work history in part to assess your capability to be a reliable, consistent employee. When I look at people's resumes for my job and I see someone who has little experience, it stands out as a risk off the bat, because it doesn't tell me much about whether they're fit for a corporate environment or for any type of work, really. It's also why I have to ask questions when I see a resume where the person jumped around, spending a few weeks or months at a job then onto the next one (in lateral moves, more often than not).

Yes, of course there are a lot of people in the working world who have the capability to perform work that they will not be hired for yet. That's because you have to prove yourself.

My previous resume had me listed as working like 6-8 jobs in less then 2 years. All depends on the jobs I guess though, since those were all temp jobs due to my area not having any steady full time work available. So companies just used you for w/e seasons they wanted and then shit canned you.

The article rings true on how easy it is for anyone in IT to become very knowledgeable without ever needing to go to school.

To me the most important aspect of anyone looking for a job in IT is not how much they know, but how they go about problem solving. I hate hearing people say they don't like to google answers or never use search engines to track down a problem. It's like "Oh so you just happen to know what that missing xxx.dll file is and why it's suddenly not there"

[Aksannyi]

my dad has always said to apply to entry level positions like that anyway. worst case they say no.

This, yeah they'd probably like someone with tons of experience but if you show them why you're worth bringing on, they may just hire you anyway.

Regardless of your experience, they will still need to spend time training you no matter what job you get. Every job has its own programs and systems that you'll have to get used to regardless. Even people with a lot of experience still won't walk onto the job knowing exactly what to do.

[Meresgi]

This, yeah they'd probably like someone with tons of experience but if you show them why you're worth bringing on, they may just hire you anyway.
.

They always overshoot by A LOT as well when listing what they want. And usually never want to fucking pay the cost lol. Case in point my work wants a Masters level CISSP network security expert with 7 yrs experience and security clearance, and they want to pay 65k for salary...fucking laughed when I saw it.

[BaneTheBrawler]

k got the go-ahead from my dad; a lot of what he tells me is confidential so i wanted to make sure i could talk about this.

so, it's interesting you mention cybersecurity education. my dad's been working on a new MBA for Cardinal Stritch University, consulting with cybersecurity professionals to build a program that "takes an innovative approach," as he puts it. He's part of their College of Business, so it's a business MBA but has a strong technical background. The idea is to create upper-level management that can understand the technical side of things and avoid "7 perpendicular red lines in green and invisible ink in the shape of a kitten" situations. As the situation stands right now, those positions are being filled by the same people over and over; the FBI, NSA, and private industry all just poach each other's talent. There are no new people coming into that field who have the training, because no such training programs exist. Generally, people reach those positions by, as you mentioned, learning the technical stuff themselves through many years of on-the-job experience.

My dad's new MBA aims to teach people both sides of that position right from the start. I don't know if their website has it listed yet, but if anyone's interested in learning more or taking classes I can get the appropriate phone numbers for you. Even if you don't end up going to Stritch, they know their competitors and can help you figure out which programs would best fit what you want to do.

[Byrthnoth]

Good right up

Well, so much for that!

[Aksannyi]

I should point out that IT is not my field but I totally feel you guys on the whole "experience needed to work <--> work needed for experience" cycle.

[TummieGaruda]

My previous resume had me listed as working like 6-8 jobs in less then 2 years. All depends on the jobs I guess though, since those were all temp jobs due to my area not having any steady full time work available. So companies just used you for w/e seasons they wanted and then shit canned you.

The article rings true on how easy it is for anyone in IT to become very knowledgeable without ever needing to go to school.

To me the most important aspect of anyone looking for a job in IT is not how much they know, but how they go about problem solving. I hate hearing people say they don't like to google answers or never use search engines to track down a problem. It's like "Oh so you just happen to know what that missing xxx.dll file is and why it's suddenly not there"

Sometimes 6-7 years of "experience" and degrees don't mean shit though. I've dealt with people in the IT industry who boast about all of their certifications and their educational degrees making six figures a year yet they do not understand simple concepts in networking that would allow them to resolve their technical issue.

As far as work experience goes though, I was lucky enough to have good job placement after graduating a 2 year tech college. I got in at a job that values people skills more than technical knowledge because the hiring manager knew that people can grow with more experience if you give them the experience to begin with. I feel that this is how it should be but sometimes it's rare to find jobs that hire with this particular mindset.

[Meresgi]

Sometimes 6-7 years of "experience" and degrees don't mean shit though. I've dealt with people in the IT industry who boast about all of their certifications and their educational degrees making six figures a year yet they do not understand simple concepts in networking that would allow them to resolve their technical issue.

Oh I know what you mean, I deal with it all the time even with "seasoned" veterans. Also the longer someone has been in a place, the harder it is for any change to occur because they just get stuck in using old ass software because "Well I know this!"

k got the go-ahead from my dad; a lot of what he tells me is confidential so i wanted to make sure i could talk about this.

so, it's interesting you mention cybersecurity education. my dad's been working on a new MBA for Cardinal Stritch University, consulting with cybersecurity professionals to build a program that "takes an innovative approach," as he puts it. He's part of their College of Business, so it's a business MBA but has a strong technical background. The idea is to create upper-level management that can understand the technical side of things and avoid "7 perpendicular red lines in green and invisible ink in the shape of a kitten" situations. As the situation stands right now, those positions are being filled by the same people over and over; the FBI, NSA, and private industry all just poach each other's talent. There are no new people coming into that field who have the training, because no such training programs exist. Generally, people reach those positions by, as you mentioned, learning the technical stuff themselves through many years of on-the-job experience.
My dad's new MBA aims to teach people both sides of that position right from the start. I don't know if their website has it listed yet, but if anyone's interested in learning more or taking classes I can get the appropriate phone numbers for you. Even if you don't end up going to Stritch, they know their competitors and can help you figure out which programs would best fit what you want to do.

I'm looking a job to redo a lot of the course work at a college to help advance their program past the level it has stagnated at. A lot of what I want to do is teach offensive measures, because you inherently learn how to defend against attacks when you know how to pull off said attacks. Telling students "oh lock this down, or do this" are great, but they really need to see WHY you have to do it in action. "This server didn't get the latest security patch, what as I fucking take it down" or "This website isn't using input validation, look at how I just dumped all of the credentials out of the database"

[Acevalefor]

They always overshoot by A LOT as well when listing what they want. And usually never want to fucking pay the cost lol. Case in point my work wants a Masters level CISSP network security expert with 7 yrs experience and security clearance, and they want to pay 65k for salary...fucking laughed when I saw it.

This is true in every field. I have been searching around to get a feel for who is looking to hire and what they are willing to pay. Yesterday, I saw an ad for an Operations Manager with 10 years experience in CAD, MSR, "various scheduling softwares", plus a whole slew of abilities that had nothing to do with Operations Management or CAD design either one. On top of the 10 years, they wanted a Bachelor's degree in a related field. Here's the best part; All this for $40k/yr.

I can drive forklift for that pay. Why the fuck would I even consider sending you my information when you miss the mark on salary offerings by almost half?

[Meresgi]

This is true in every field. I have been searching around to get a feel for who is looking to hire and what they are willing to pay. Yesterday, I saw an ad for an Operations Manager with 10 years experience in CAD, MSR, "various scheduling softwares", plus a whole slew of abilities that had nothing to do with Operations Management or CAD design either one. On top of the 10 years, they wanted a Bachelor's degree in a related field. Here's the best part; All this for $40k/yr.

I can drive forklift for that pay. Why the fuck would I even consider sending you my information when you miss the mark on salary offerings by almost half?

Yeah, shit is hilarious. Especially in my area around DC. CISSP alone = 120k salary average. Tack on a clearance and a Masters and if it's not offering at least 150k before negotiating on vacation time and other benefits then fucking loooooool.

[Soa]

I interviewed for a Network Analyst job last year that called for a BS, CCNA, and 7+ years of experience ( I only had the experience fyi) and found out after the interview that the job only payed $32k/year and required 24/7/365 oncall duties without any extra pay. I asked the guy straight up how he expects anyone with these qualifications to take the job and he told me "someone will eventually be desperate enough to take it".

[Aksannyi]

That is fucking ridiculous but sadly, true.

[Meresgi]

Half of New York’s Tech Workers Lack College Degrees, Report Says

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/02/ny...?smid=re-share

The fast-growing technology industry in New York is often cited as a magnet for graduates of the nation’s top universities. But a new report to be discussed in a speech by a deputy mayor on Wednesday found that almost half of the technology jobs in the city are filled by people without college degrees.

The report was commissioned to show just how important the tech sector has become, estimating that it accounts for nearly 300,000 jobs in the city, more than half of them at companies in nontechnology businesses, such as finance and advertising.