White and male, Google releases diversity data

[Meresgi]

Shit I would be all for more ladies in my field. Goddamn sausage factory at conferences and meetings!

[Cream Soda]

ack of information or family history in the profession, it is not enough to rely solely on people naturally migrating to a profession that is not heavily populated by others in their minority group.

If you have a losing mind-set, you should lose. That's retarded as shit. When I'm applying for something, I don't sit there and think "I wonder if there's enough black people for me to apply to this" The fuck kind of thinking is that?

[Correction]

I'm not saying skin color/gender necessarily impacts interest. Just maybe, there aren't a lot of women, blacks, or Hispanics who even want to work at Google.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Acevalefor]

If you have a losing mind-set, you should lose. That's retarded as shit. When I'm applying for something, I don't sit there and think "I wonder if there's enough black people for me to apply to this" The fuck kind of thinking is that?

The kind of thinking that is prevalent in Hispanic culture. It's the mindset that says "I should stick to the construction and manufacturing industry because that is where everybody I know works and I have the most support there". I have personal experience here that says people can be quite hard on themselves and believe that they are worthless regardless of their skills.

[Ayn]

If you have a losing mind-set, you should lose. That's retarded as shit. When I'm applying for something, I don't sit there and think "I wonder if there's enough black people for me to apply to this" The fuck kind of thinking is that?

I'm of the same mindset, particularly when I got into a debate with a colleague saying "They <minority group in question> shouldn't be looking up to me as an example, since my experience growing up was very different from theirs."

At the same time, I know that some minority groups (have been in this boat) are actively or subtly discouraged from entering/majoring in certain fields. I don't sweat it because hey, things turned out great for me, and if I really wanted to work in another industry now, I'd just go back and get the degree (school's goddamn easy once you figure out how the system works).

But yeah, data's not surprising.

[Zeb]

Did they include their non-tech related jobs? Shipping/receiving, janitorial, security?

[Correction]

Did they include their non-tech related jobs? Shipping/receiving, janitorial, security?

Yes, read the report.

[Cantih]

The minority cultural reasons are news to me.

But for CS in particular, I figured the lack of black and hispanic people in the field was due to home computer access. Since statistically those households will have less income, they're less likely to have a computer because it's a costly expense.
Hell, even a Raspberry Pi despite being 25/35 bucks, you still need a flash drive, KB/M, and most expensively a monitor, nickels and dimes add up. It's cheaper now than it was two decades ago, but it's not an impulse purchase by any means, and they're only two years old anyway.

And really, if you go into CS in college, you've likely been tinkering with a computer for at least a decade beforehand. Remember, the era of AOL was only 20 years ago, and the computer environment like we had in the FFXI days was only a decade ago.
From a generational standpoint, ubiquitous computing is still really fucking new.

It's why like I said in the Reading Rainbow thread, I'd really like to see a serious kid's CS/IT education show coming out of PBS.

[Correction]

But for CS in particular, I figured the lack of black and hispanic people in the field was due to home computer access. Since statistically those households will have less income, they're less likely to have a computer because it's a costly expense.
Hell, even a Raspberry Pi despite being 25/35 bucks, you still need a flash drive, KB/M, and most expensively a monitor, nickels and dimes add up. It's cheaper now than it was two decades ago, but it's not an impulse purchase by any means, and they're only two years old anyway.

It's more fundamental than that. Stabilize the living situation of black/hispanic households by undoing the racist justice system, doing something (anything) to combat increasing structural segregation, improve the social safety net, and maybe, just maybe they can stop worrying about getting killed/starving to death/arrested by racist cops long enough to enjoy things like the free time required at home to study and use technology in a manner conducive to a STEM educational track.

[notorious bum]

It's more fundamental than that. Stabilize the living situation of blacks/hispanic households by undoing the racist justice system, doing something (anything) to combat increasing structural segregation, improve the social safety net, and maybe, just maybe they can stop worrying about getting killed/starving to death/arrested by racist cops long enough to enjoy things like the free time required at home to study and use technology in a manner conducive to a STEM educational track.

/thread

edit: Also, SNL is terrible and anyone should feel terrible for supporting that weak ass casting.

[Lordender]

Affirmative action is despicable, you're either qualified/capable for the job at hand, or you're not.

This is probably why incompetence is so endemic across corporate America right now. Companies having to push quota's and affirmative action policies which leads to unqualified or incapable people getting the job to keep the government bureaucrats off their backs.

Should always be about the best candidates who can get the job done. If you suck at your job, the force that is capitalism will kick in and you'll be replaced by someone who does the job better than you.

I know, what a marvel concept, if you fail to prove yourself worthy, you get replaced by those who are more thirsty and eager to compete.

[Correction]

Affirmative action is despicable, you're either qualified/capable for the job at hand, or you're not.

This is probably why incompetence is so endemic across corporate America right now. Companies having to push quota's and affirmative action policies to keep the government bureaucrats off their backs.

Should always be about the best candidates who can get the job done. If you suck at your job, capitalism will kick in and you'll be replaced by someone who does the job better than you.

What does any of this have to do with what Google disclosed today. Are you just ranting out of your ass for no reason?

[Cantih]

edit: Also, SNL is terrible and anyone should feel terrible for supporting that weak ass casting.

^
SNL has not been good since after the mid 90s

My thought on affirmative action. I'm going to riff on Winston Churchill
"Affirmative action is the worst immediate solution to racial inequality, except for all other immediate solutions to racial inequality."

Which is to say, it isn't a good solution, it's just the best and quickest solution we were able to implement.
The good solution is long term stuff like Correction brought up, and if we had done that (boy we fucking didn't), we could probably have done away with affirmative action by now (but we can't).

If you really really hate affirmative action, then if you want it to go away, you have to truly solve the problem it's meant to address.

[Karbuncle]

What does any of this have to do with what Google disclosed today. Are you just ranting out of your ass for no reason?

I think what he's saying is that Google mentioned wanting to be more diverse, or not being as diverse as they like... and he is more or less saying Diversity for the sake of it is stupid, either you're qualified to work the job or you're not, race/etc need not be a factor. Affirmative action simply isn't a good fix, its just the easiest band-aid to the core issue.

More so the problem shouldn't be "We need more African Americans in the office, find them!" it should be, "Why aren't more African American applying for this job to begin with?"

As its been stated already, by Correction:

It's more fundamental than that. Stabilize the living situation of black/hispanic households by undoing the racist justice system, doing something (anything) to combat increasing structural segregation, improve the social safety net, and maybe, just maybe they can stop worrying about getting killed/starving to death/arrested by racist cops long enough to enjoy things like the free time required at home to study and use technology in a manner conducive to a STEM educational track.

Finding people to fill a diversity quota isn't solving the core issue, though maybe this part goes off from what Google released and more into the topic of why no one in the world is surprised google is predominantly white.

[Correction]

I think what he's saying is that Google mentioned wanting to be more diverse, or not being as diverse as they like... and he is more or less saying Diversity for the sake of it is stupid, either you're qualified to work the job or you're not, race/etc need not be a factor. Affirmative action simply isn't a good fix, its just the easiest band-aid to the core issue.

People are only bringing up Affirmative Action because they have some racist axe to grind. But Google has explicitly spelled out their approach to the problem and it's nothing like Affirmative Action. Lordender just rammed his shit sideways into the thread without thinking, reading the article or even trying to understand the problem.

[Souj]

Yeah, I was going to say... that article didn't say Google was just trying to hire more black people, it said they were funding programs and things that helped push them into tech programs where they could learn how to do the tech stuff.

[Blubbartron]

To be fair, the idea that the racial/gender mix of a certain field should be roughly equal to the racial/gender mix of the population at large is entirely flawed to begin with. Different people are different, and the more different people are, the more different their choices will likely be. There are fewer differences between people of the same gender/race, and so it's unsurprising when people who are less different make similar choices to each other.

That said, there are real social problems that we have to deal with, and while Correction may have better firsthand knowledge, I disagree with the things he finds to be problems. I think those problems are derivative in nature. There is some institutionalized racism, but I don't think it's as rampant as some people would like to believe. I believe a lot of it is reactionary, because the statistics are not in favor of the young black male when it comes to likelihood to commit a violent crime. The true root cause is poverty. An overwhelming number of black people (and other minorities) are deeply impoverished, and where poverty thrives, so too does crime. When you're dealing with poverty and crime, life goals like education or finding a stable career don't matter - being able to eat today and not get stabbed/shot is what matters. Unfortunately, this reprioritization of education/careers to lesser importance causes a vicious cycle of poverty that's very, very difficult to break free from. And this is why we need a living wage for all working adults.

[Ayn]

It's more fundamental than that. Stabilize the living situation of black/hispanic households by undoing the racist justice system, doing something (anything) to combat increasing structural segregation, improve the social safety net, and maybe, just maybe they can stop worrying about getting killed/starving to death/arrested by racist cops long enough to enjoy things like the free time required at home to study and use technology in a manner conducive to a STEM educational track

I think (and someone can please step in and contribute / correct me respectfully if they feel I'm wrong), that in some advising, when someone sees a Latino/Latina/Black or other underserved minority in college, they may steer them towards other majors that they feel are "easier", not out of malice or overt racism, but because they feel that completion rates in those majors already tend to be low, and they don't want to see some kid fail out of college when they already have the cards stacked against them.

It's very hard to explain succinctly, but the best way I can frame it is that if you're in that population and say to an adviser "hey, I want to major in computer science, engineering, or something else", the person doing counseling might say something like "That major can be very tough" (I'm broadly generalizing here) or 'it tends to take longer' etc. here.

Unless you're absolutely set on that major and you're a first generation student or other underserved group, what may go through your head is "Well shit, I can't afford to stay here longer than necessary, I just need to do what I can to get out", you may go the path of least resistance.


Neil DeGrasse Tyson had some interesting comments on this.

And no, I'm not bringing this up to say "oh those poor minorities" or whatever, but trying to illustrate that the conversations that happen are completely different, and while it's easy to look back as someone in your 20's and ask 'well why didn't you do <x>", when someone's very young, in college, and has a crapton of 'you're the first to go' and little family support, well.

And no, I don't necessarily think quotas are the goal here. As someone mentioned already, the demographic data is skewed that way because the supply of desired minorities or whatever out there is already low.

Hell, I'm pretty damn good at my job, but in my department, the last 3 hires were, in part, diversity hires. There's also the fact that all of us are extremely fucking good at our jobs and no one was surprised when it happened (hell, one lady's got like 3 different degrees and years of experience in different industries, so yeah), but still.

[TummieGaruda]

I work in the Tech industry and I can say that in the last eight years that I have been with my company, only 2 other black men have been hired here (both are gone now though due to job offers). I have yet to see any other blacks get interviews and it's not because the company doesn't want to grant them interviews. It is because there doesn't seem to be a lot of interested from other black men to apply for a position in this industry. Also, you would think that my department would have more whites, but actually we have ZERO white people. I am the only black guy, and the majority is asians and hispanics.

[Brill Weave]

It's more fundamental than that. Stabilize the living situation of black/hispanic households by undoing the racist justice system, doing something (anything) to combat increasing structural segregation, improve the social safety net, and maybe, just maybe they can stop worrying about getting killed/starving to death/arrested by racist cops long enough to enjoy things like the free time required at home to study and use technology in a manner conducive to a STEM educational track.

But how will they find time to deal drugs and steal cars?