NA/EU LCS Pro League discussion

[Dantrag]

way past due for that move honestly, doesn't matter how good his shotcalling is if the game is effectively 4 or 4.5 vs 5

This is how I feel. He's been holding them back for at least a year. I said it a loooong time ago that he needed to go.

[Gryffes]

Once they replace hai people will start focusing on balls I think.
Lemon was in the danger zone last year but he's picked up new champs and looks a lot better, meteos looks great and sneaky as well.

It's a lot like when TSM couldn't beat C9 for shit, because oddone was just getting destroyed by meteos. C9 can't beat tsm because hai was a massive weight on the team vs bjerg.
TSM look better than they are because bjerg wins mid every game, as soon as mids start getting into na lcs that can compete with bjerg the cracks in tsm will start to be exposed.

[chazzyphizzle]

yeah balls has looked really bad on champs that arent hecarim

[Zetanio]

yeah balls has looked really bad on champs that arent hecarim

I think the whole team stagnated while the rest of NA caught up and ran past them. Hai getting sick and then having wrist problems just accelerated what was happening.

[chazzyphizzle]

yeah they all looked pretty shitty most of the split (not to mention the embarassment at IEM) but meaty o's /lemon/sneaky picked up their game while hai stayed in the dumpster and balls hovered dangerously close to the lid

[Zetanio]

The strategy to beat them was literally camp Hai and tilt him. That's what TSM did and made it look easy.

[ringthree]

Remember that this is the team in the finals of the NA split. You guys are acting like they are trash. Hai was never a dominant midlaner, he was their shotcaller and ridiculously good at it. He has fallen off a bit, but it was still good enough to pick up a game against a team that is at the absolute peak of their game. Perspective, please.

[Zetanio]

I was never saying they were trash but they hadn't progressed from where they were after last season, which was light years ahead of most of NA. I love Hai, he's one hell of a player.

[enzan]

I recently started getting back into league because the semester is over for me so I don't know much about any new players on the horizon. Is there any mid lane that C9 can get from NA that can even compete with Bjerg? Do you guys think they will reach out to another region for a new mid lane?

[Aevis]

Incarnati0n is the most obvious choice when it comes to mechanics and shotcalling (he coached SK when he was banned). It all depends on his personality and if he fits into the team.

[Dantrag]

Remember that this is the team in the finals of the NA split. You guys are acting like they are trash. Hai was never a dominant midlaner, he was their shotcaller and ridiculously good at it. He has fallen off a bit, but it was still good enough to pick up a game against a team that is at the absolute peak of their game. Perspective, please.

They just haven't improved at all since they went to worlds. Hai got worse, I've been saying it for a LONG time but he's been holding C9 back like something fierce.

[chazzyphizzle]

Remember that this is the team in the finals of the NA split. You guys are acting like they are trash. Hai was never a dominant midlaner, he was their shotcaller and ridiculously good at it. He has fallen off a bit, but it was still good enough to pick up a game against a team that is at the absolute peak of their game. Perspective, please.

his shotcalling wasn't even that good after worlds 2014, definitely not good enough to carry his abysmal playmaking. nobody said c9 is a bad team, but if they want to be content with 2nd place in the 3rd or 4th best region then by all means they should have stuck with hai. replacing him is mandatory if they want to actually compete on an international level

[D44kpunk]

the only "stand out" mid only players in high challenger tend to consistently flop on the LCS stage mancloud(recently)/goldenglue.

there aren't many good NA mids sadly. the obvious choises are incarnati0n or yusui.

personally am hoping that c9 doesn't import someone from china/korean unless their english is absolutely fucking impeccable, but that's just me

edit: also people can bash hai all they want but he's probably the best they are going to get if they want someone from NA

[ringthree]

his shotcalling wasn't even that good after worlds 2014, definitely not good enough to carry his abysmal playmaking. nobody said c9 is a bad team, but if they want to be content with 2nd place in the 3rd or 4th best region then by all means they should have stuck with hai. replacing him is mandatory if they want to actually compete on an international level

Yeah, I am going with you don't know what you are talking about. When he was mechanically poor because of his wrists, the only reason they were in several games was because of good decision making. Also to call his play "abysmal" is a joke, outside of TSM and Bjerg, he only occasionally struggled, and was back in form by the end of the split. I highly doubt that anyone is "content" with 2nd place, but you are beginning to really sound like an armchair quarterback/coach. Replacing him comes at a heavy cost in high quality shot-calling. You can't just ignore everything good about Hai just because you want to bash on him. Keeping him comes at a cost too but I highly doubt they would have replaced him if they didn't already have something/someone of major significance lined up (Incarnati0n).

Also, while NA is still behind CH and KR, the gap is getting smaller, and that much is obvious. To even suggest that NA could be close to 4th with the way that the entirety of EU played this split leads me to further believe that this isn't really about analysis for you, it is about hyperbole.

[chazzyphizzle]

holy shit man you are really going to bat for hai. you clearly think i have some vendetta against him. if you can't see that hai's mid lane play was not up to par and was detrimental to his team, i'm not sure what to tell you. i'm sure he could get back to LCS caliber play after rehabbing his wrists or whatever the hell is going on there, but he is just not there right now.

and i personally think NA is overall better than EU currently, i just didnt want to start a stupid eu/na shitfest so i was diplomatic. good job misinterpreting that

[ringthree]

holy shit man you are really going to bat for hai. you clearly think i have some vendetta against him. if you can't see that hai's mid lane play was not up to par and was detrimental to his team, i'm not sure what to tell you. i'm sure he could get back to LCS caliber play after rehabbing his wrists or whatever the hell is going on there, but he is just not there right now.

and i personally think NA is overall better than EU currently, i just didnt want to start a stupid eu/na shitfest so i was diplomatic. good job misinterpreting that

I just don't think you are being evenhanded in your analysis of him. I don't think you have a vendetta, I just think you are uninformed.

I also think it is weird what you choose to be diplomatic about, and when you engage in ridiculous hyperbole. You are a bit all over the place.

[chazzyphizzle]

and you are...informed? or are you an "armchair analyst/coach" like literally every other poster in this thread?

[D44kpunk]

well considering hai is still top 10 in the NA challenger ladder (inb4 solo queue means nothing) which isn't true at all, it obviously proves mechanics/decision making to some degree.. i think you're over selling how "bad" hai is.

i feel confident that any team besides TIP/TSM would be making a good decision picking up hai. stop reading into the community circle jerk so much and look at the facts

[Dantrag]

well considering hai is still top 10 in the NA challenger ladder (inb4 solo queue means nothing) which isn't true at all, it obviously proves mechanics/decision making to some degree.. i think you're over selling how "bad" hai is.

i feel confident that any team besides TIP/TSM would be making a good decision picking up hai. stop reading into the community circle jerk so much and look at the facts

Hai is bad compared to LCS level players. There are a lot of people in challenger that can't make it in LCS. He was a high level player but others have evolved and become better, he stayed stagnant even before his wrist.

[Aevis]

Who's actually a good NA mid aside from Bjerg/XWX? Maybe Fenix if you count his most recent performance?