NA/EU LCS Pro League discussion

[Marootsoobutsu]

Dude, I am not trying to be arrogant here, but seriously, if you are going to make counter-intuitive arguments (SKT not best, KDA not indicative, Solo play = team play) then at least back those claims up with facts.

Except none of those are counter-intuitive arguments.

[ringthree]

Except none of those are counter-intuitive arguments.

SKT not being the best is counter-intuitive to their current level of play.

KDA not being indicative of skill is pretty counter-intuitive (at least for carries).

Solo play and team play not having a lot of overlap is also pretty commonly accepted.

I am not saying that can't be disproven, but starting from the position that they are somehow inherently incorrect is without merit.

[ringthree]

turtle with the hard carry both games this week, wonder who the stupidity circle jerk will be against next

Dat hard carry against Team 8 doh.

[BadKarma]

Turtle being bad wasn't a circle jerk when he has in fact been bad.

He's had one good week this split, and one of those games was against the worst team in either lcs

[D44kpunk]

SKT not being the best is counter-intuitive to their current level of play.

SKT lost to EDG at the only international tournament, the only other showing from korea we have seen thus far internationally is GE tigers (now koo tigers and 2nd in the standings in korea) completely shitting the bed against all competition at IEM. The only thing you're basing your opinions off is montecristo saying korea is the best (he always does by the way.) monte had admittedly played 3 league of legends games in the last year (google for source, was in his AMA.) while he may seem to have good game sense, there is a reason nearly everyone from CLG has said he is a horrible coach. he can explain the game at a platinum level, when i watch him cast some of the shit he says is so fucking stupid its unreal. there is no proof of SKT being the best when they are only playing other teams in their region, i have no idea why you cannot realize this and there are tons of people who would make this debate.

KDA not being indicative of skill is pretty counter-intuitive (at least for carries).

No offense but your elo is showing, there is this thing at diamond+ called funneling where certain people are given kills/farm/buffs, i'm not sure if this happens at lower elo or not but in every team you see specific people that farm/kills are focused on to, KDA is not indicative of skill and thinking so proves that you have no idea what you're talking about. best example from this split is Forg1ven, clearly the worst ADC in the LCS since he went from having the best stats to the worst in the course of a split.

Solo play and team play not having a lot of overlap is also pretty commonly accepted.

I am not saying that can't be disproven, but starting from the position that they are somehow inherently incorrect is without merit.

solo play and team play have tons of overlap, it's a thing called "mechanics" and "game sense" if they had no overlap the professional players would not solo queue at all, go check out your gods op.gg. to help you out http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=Hide+on+bush http://www.op.gg/summoner/userName=SKT+T1+Faker the dude plays more solo queue than anyone i have ever seen, he has tons of smurfs as well that i'm not going to attempt to find. to quote doublelift "if you're not already challenger in solo queue and you're trying to go pro you're a fucking idiot and there's no way you'd make it"

also, so what if 1 game was against team 8? TDK was allegedly the worst team prior to this week and the other game was against CLG. both of which turtle did the majority of the damage.

[BadKarma]

Turtle also has done the least damage of any adc leading to this week. You don't think the fact that his job was in jeopardy woke him up a bit?

[D44kpunk]

just some quick stats, turtle is red, bjerg is blue, other is average





all things considered, other than week 1 and considering santorin does not gank bot at all i'd say turtle is doing alright, though i still think due to having a shit jungler keith would still be a better fit. a jungler that can only gank 1 lane and still be behind in farm is probably not a jungler worth having. TSM also has the shortest game time so saying he's done the least damage is a bit of a misleading statistic but i guess i don't really expect you to understand that

[BadKarma]

Damage share is massively important. Turtle likes to play cleanup in any game where he does well. And then he makes bone headed plays like flashing into the enemy team to try and get a kill and shit like that.

Also could you been any more condescending? You're bad at the game too.

[Marootsoobutsu]

SKT not being the best is counter-intuitive to their current level of play.

KDA not being indicative of skill is pretty counter-intuitive (at least for carries).

Solo play and team play not having a lot of overlap is also pretty commonly accepted.

I am not saying that can't be disproven, but starting from the position that they are somehow inherently incorrect is without merit.

Saying that the reigning world champs are the best team is not counter-intuitive, no matter how well anyone else is playing: SKT isn't putting up those results against the same competition as EDG, so the only metric we really have objectively is their last head to head in a meaningful competition-- World's. Which EDG won. It's not counter-intuitive; it's debatable, and it's a legitimate debate.

KDA not being indicative of skill is only counter-intuitive if you're looking at an incredibly surface-level style of play. KDA /can/ be an indicator, but there is a LOT more that goes into things than KDA, especially in a team environment. I guess, from an absolutely basic understanding of the game, it might be counter-intuitive. But if you have any understanding of how team sports work, you know that it's not who scores what points-- or even how many points are scored total. Those are easily understood metrics, but they aren't the real goal, and aren't the real story, especially as soon as you realize that in League, points don't matter.

KDA hinges on so many things-- if you're an adc carry, how good is your support? Are you godlike, but the rest of your team is average and you just make them look better than they are, while they at the same time bring down your potential? Does your team rely heavily on disengage tactics? Does your team rely on you diving head-long into the enemy, doing as much damage as you possibly can and probably dying in the cause of winning a fight 5-1 or 4-2? Does your team strictly control when they fight? All of those are going to limit KDAs, simply because the frequency of fights will go down, or because your deaths will go up-- even as a carry (see Hai in season 2 and 3 when he was still considered amazing). And those are things that should be intuitively understood by anyone with even a casual understanding of non-point objective based games. It's easy to quote, and so it's easy to confuse with importance, and in solo queue, it IS an important indicator of skill, since almost all of those other factors are removed or are evened out by the randomness of queues. Which is why...

Solo play and team play not having a lot of overlap is also pretty commonly accepted is pretty silly. Solo play is no guarantee of team play skill, but if you do not have the solo play skill, you aren't going to make it on the pro stage, period. It's not a guarantor, but it IS a prerequisite. You see the same thing in any number of sports, where an amazing prospect fails-- whether because of the system they were put into, or just because they were amazing when their ego was getting boosted by crushing all the amateurs but the pros are all at basically the same skill level. Because, really, the difference between the best player in the LCS and the worst is not that enormous... it just looks that way because the better you get, the more tiny imperfections matter. Teamwork and Solo Play are not the same skills, but if you don't have the solo play, you won't succeed in a team environment; however, just having solo play doesn't mean you'll also have teamwork abilities. But NOT having solo skill guarantees you won't succeed in a team environment. Because whoever you lane against is going to blow you up so hard they'll be 3k gold ahead before you have a chance to bring your teamwork to the table.

[D44kpunk]

Damage share is massively important. Turtle likes to play cleanup in any game where he does well. And then he makes bone headed plays like flashing into the enemy team to try and get a kill and shit like that.

Also could you been any more condescending? You're bad at the game too.

i never said i was good, but i do consider myself above the reddit circle jerk on this one. i hate dyrus and i hate TSM and i also thought the circle jerk on him was asinine, damage share is important yes. i'm guessing they have that data on their API but they do not list it anywhere on their esports website. you can clearly see when turtle does well he does exceptional, backing up what i had said before. and when he does poorly, he has low CS, low KDA. this is generally due to TSM funneling most of its resources on to bjerg/dyrus as of late, which is fantastic if they can win and pull out consistent results (they haven't) but you can't expect turtle to do well in this scenario.

tldr; of my entire opinion of TSM, they are all decent players except santorin, turtle is underrated, bjerg a bit overrated.

[Viq]

Saying that the reigning world champs are the best team is not counter-intuitive, no matter how well anyone else is playing: SKT isn't putting up those results against the same competition as EDG, so the only metric we really have objectively is their last head to head in a meaningful competition-- World's. Which EDG won. It's not counter-intuitive; it's debatable, and it's a legitimate debate.

EDG did not win Worlds. They won MSI, which is not even close to being the same thing.

[ringthree]

EDG did not win Worlds. They won MSI, which is not even close to being the same thing.

Honestly, I don't know what world they are living in. I should have taken the advice and not engaged.

[ringthree]

i never said i was good, but i do consider myself above the reddit circle jerk on this one. i hate dyrus and i hate TSM and i also thought the circle jerk on him was asinine, damage share is important yes. i'm guessing they have that data on their API but they do not list it anywhere on their esports website. you can clearly see when turtle does well he does exceptional, backing up what i had said before. and when he does poorly, he has low CS, low KDA. this is generally due to TSM funneling most of its resources on to bjerg/dyrus as of late, which is fantastic if they can win and pull out consistent results (they haven't) but you can't expect turtle to do well in this scenario.

tldr; of my entire opinion of TSM, they are all decent players except santorin, turtle is underrated, bjerg a bit overrated.

You are the reddit circle jerk, which is basically to say whatever you want, then ignore all counter evidence, and then call the other side a circle jerk.

[BadKarma]

The circle of jerk continues, we will whine and they will cry- Susan 2k15

[D44kpunk]

You are the reddit circle jerk, which is basically to say whatever you want, then ignore all counter evidence, and then call the other side a circle jerk.

your only counter point so far has been "you ignore all counter points."

and even if he meant MSI and not worlds, SKT has 0 members on it that won worlds last split, or even attended. EDG has 2. china has 5, korea has 0.

edit: just for clarity incase people don't know SKTs story last year since league is a pretty bandwagony sport, the reason they didn't go was because bengi was the worst player on the earth according to inven/the korean community/even our reddit community.

[Marootsoobutsu]

EDG did not win Worlds. They won MSI, which is not even close to being the same thing.

I have no idea why/how I completely derped that that hard.

And it may not be the same prestige, but the point that it's the last time they met is still relevant.

[Aevis]

Pre-info about how to get tickets for Worlds: http://na.lolesports.com/articles/ho...onship-tickets

I hope the websites of the venues won't crap out on ticket release as I already got my plane/hotel for semis and finals.

[Zetanio]

I wish I had the cash handy to book everything now. It'll be a game time decision whether I fly over or not.

[Dantrag]

I thought worlds was in New York this year...

[Zetanio]

Nope, NA LCS finals are.