Rehauled Weapon Skills: tier lists

[Martel]

I retested some Atonement stuff:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Talk:Atonement

Very interesting.

So, before, TP just made it easier to hit the dmg cap with lower total enmity. Ele belt/gorget did the same. Now we get more enmity for the DMG Atonement deals based on TP.

So presumably, using a gorget/belt would boost the enmity mod? I wonder how much enmity+ it'd equate to?

[Byrthnoth]

No idea. I would be unsurprised to find that forget and belt were equivalent to about +.2 to the mod. This means that between Sentinel DE Flash and a 300 TP atonement, you can pretty much cap enmity. This makes it fairly easy to recover from hate resets if you sit on TP and sentinel.

I should have the gorgets to test that when I get back home, assuming no one else does it first. I am doing a little more enmity testing (on bgwiki) and am ultimately trying to build up to remaking the damage taken and damage dealt enmity curves so I can figure out the effect of enmity+ on enmity lost.

[Martel]

I would expect the enmity gain per dmg to be a great deal lower on lvl 100~ mobs. iirc that's where the enmity nerfs hit mostly. I feel some doubt about being able to cap enmity on high level targets even with x4 the base enmity.

The first dmg enmity nerf was a 70% reduction, according to SE. Highest lvl CE mod recorded on kaeko's blog was for lvl 95, @ 1.25. reduce by 70%, and we have .375.

Max possible Atonement should be 1732. 1732*0.375=649 * 2(sentinel) = 1298 *2(3k tp) = 2596 CE. So about 1/4 the way to cap. But really, these values should be lower. Because any kinda relevant content will be waaay higher level than 95.

But stuff like this is why we need the new dmg dealt CE mods. I'm glad to hear someone's working on dmg dealt/taken enmity. My attempts to test on high level mobs were... frustrating. <,<;;

[Byrthnoth]

Assuming about 0.5 CE/damage. Sentinel for x2.1, Atonement TP bonus for 2x, 90 enmity in gear for 1.9x, 1250 base with Sentinel DE Flash (capped VE should cap atonement I think.)

Works out to about 5k CE for Atonement. Add it to the ~1.5 from DE flash and you are not far off.

As far as "reduced by 70%"... I am not sure. Comparing my test to Kaeko's, it looks more like "reduced to 70%."

[Martel]

Last I knew, sentinel was gear enmity. Unless I've just been doing it wrong for years. <,< And 2.1 for sentinel? Where'd that .1 come from?

[Byrthnoth]

Last I knew, sentinel was gear enmity. Unless I've just been doing it wrong for years. <,< And 2.1 for sentinel? Where'd that .1 come from?

Job points. I assumed Sentinel was separate because every other JA enmity enhancement/reduction is multiplicative in another term, but I have not tested it.

[Martel]

Hmmmm. the sentinel testing on Kaeko's blog says:

"* Sentinel automatically places you at +100 Enmity; having more + Enmity gear still results in +100."

Although it's possible that it's changed since.

Ahh, job points. Completely forgot about that. The sentinel job points pretty much have to be either cap breaking, or a separate term. Else there'd be no point.

So I'd agree on x2.1 for sentinel. But unless sentinel has changed since Kaeko's tests, we don't get enmity+ gear and sentinel as different terms. Note that I'd be delighted if sentinel Was JA enmity, as that's overall better for PLD. It just contradicts what's been previously shown.

[Fival]

Hmmmm. the sentinel testing on Kaeko's blog says:

"* Sentinel automatically places you at +100 Enmity; having more + Enmity gear still results in +100."

Although it's possible that it's changed since.

Ahh, job points. Completely forgot about that. The sentinel job points pretty much have to be either cap breaking, or a separate term. Else there'd be no point.

So I'd agree on x2.1 for sentinel. But unless sentinel has changed since Kaeko's tests, we don't get enmity+ gear and sentinel as different terms. Note that I'd be delighted if sentinel Was JA enmity, as that's overall better for PLD. It just contradicts what's been previously shown.

I brought this up the day they added those job points, because i remember it and bg wiki confirmed it, that we were capping with just sentinel, it either has to break that cap or its the most useless job points yet.

[dasva]

I would expect the enmity gain per dmg to be a great deal lower on lvl 100~ mobs. iirc that's where the enmity nerfs hit mostly. I feel some doubt about being able to cap enmity on high level targets even with x4 the base enmity.

The first dmg enmity nerf was a 70% reduction, according to SE. Highest lvl CE mod recorded on kaeko's blog was for lvl 95, @ 1.25. reduce by 70%, and we have .375.

Max possible Atonement should be 1732. 1732*0.375=649 * 2(sentinel) = 1298 *2(3k tp) = 2596 CE. So about 1/4 the way to cap. But really, these values should be lower. Because any kinda relevant content will be waaay higher level than 95.

But stuff like this is why we need the new dmg dealt CE mods. I'm glad to hear someone's working on dmg dealt/taken enmity. My attempts to test on high level mobs were... frustrating. <,<;;

Yeah it was only level 75+ stuff with it supposedly being higher for over 99 iirc.

Also if you look at kaekos stuff the level factor follows an equation so you don't need the need the chart to figure out what it would've been prenerf.

Anyways I think SEs "about 1/3" thing was just an approximate for a certain level. But that the percentage change from previous wasn't constant. Based on your dmg enmity testing and the cure enmity testing I did awhile back it looks to me instead of putting in some kind of multiplier in they just changed the constant in the denominators by about 100ish. Assuming this is correct that would mean at 76 that would be -76% (pretty much exactly the 1/3 they talked about) but at say 120 it should be more like only -55% compared to what previous values should have been


Anyone know which ws still need testing? iirc most the clubs weren't done?

[Byrthnoth]

Ahh, job points. Completely forgot about that. The sentinel job points pretty much have to be either cap breaking, or a separate term. Else there'd be no point.

Okay, so this is still how Sentinel works. It ignores Enmity in gear and caps you at +100. The job points are a separate multiplier term after that. I'm currently level 5 Sentinel potency.

So I aggroed a monster and used Flash with Sentinel up and it took my mule 18 Carols and 18 Paralyze/Silences to pull it off me (378 enmity = 180*2*1.05).

[sheepdee]

i can use Spirit Taker to get 9xx~1xxx dmg on IEP mob and i get almost all my MP back XD...it's good when i'm doing mana burn..

[Sechs]

Did some attempt in creating general tiers for BRD dd.
Previously tiers were something like
1) Mordant Rime (Carnwenhan)
2) Exenterator 5/5
3) Mordant Rime
4) Exenterator (3/5 and lower)
5) Evisceration

Now tiers are something like this:
1) Rudra's Storm (1800+ TP)*
2) Mordant Rime (Carnwenhan)
3) Rudra's Storm (1300+ TP)*
4) Evisceration / Mordant Rime **
5) Exenterator

* Can of course use Moonshade to reach those TP tier points. With Fencer (single wield) Rudra's Storm at 1000 is already at 1300
** Their position can move around according to several factors. Fencer (single wield) gives nothing to Mordant Rime, while it gives a vantage to Evisceration. At 1000TP with no buffs it's around 200 more points of damage. Attack buffs scale much better on Mordant Rime than Evisceration though. When you start adding stuff like one Minuet, Att food and Chaos roll, Mordant gets much higher than Evis. Also Mordant doesn't benefit from overTPing whereas Evis does (altough the benefit is very small, if the anchor points are the same they were before the patch.
Last but not least, the amount of damage added by Minuet also has differences with Rudra vs Mordant. On Rudra the return you get from adding Attack goes up with TP. At 1000 you get more return on Mordant, but as you go up Rudra starts getting more. Rudra overtakes Mordant in this very early, around 1500 iir.

Basically: Exenterator not necessary anymore, it's actually the weakest option atm. Evisceration is weak, but it's still a viable option (especially if singlewielding) and a good WS to use if you cannot afford to debuff the enemy. Mordant is overall a nice WS, especially if you're a Carnwenhan wielder, but Rudra can do much more damage if you can/have to hold TP.
The benefits from stuff like Moonshade (+250) and Fencer (+300) are pretty huge on Rudra.

[Sechs]

Did some tests for DNC too, gonna need a lot of corrections here if you think I omitted some very important conditions?

I got:
1) Rudra's Storm / Evisceration *
2) Pyrrhic Kleos (Terpsichore) **
3) Dancing Edge 3250 ***
4) Pyrrhic Kleos 2980
5) Exenterator 5/5 2888
6) Shark Bite 2400

* Rudra's Storm can get better than Evisceration after a certain threshold of TP. This threshold changes according to your attack and your target's defense. An unbuffed DNC on a Serac Rabbit (acc capped) will never reach this threshold even at 3000 (altough of course things change if you stack Climactic, greatly favouring Rudra). You need a bit less than 600 attack (from buffs, berserk, minuet etc) for Rudra to overtake Evisceration. Alternatively Box Step can be used, or a combination of the two of course. The sum here is that attack/defdown benefits Evisceration less than other WSs, so there will likely always be a threshold after which Rudra starts being better than Evis because of that. On lower level target this is easier to obtain of course. For instance unbuffed against Delve Fodder it takes 2150 TP for Rudra to overake, or 1850 with just +100 attack, and so on.
Basically: Rudra is a very nice option on low and mid level targets, being often better than Evisceration (but never at 1000TP) On high level targets it's unlikely to cap attack or to get to that sweet spot, so Rudra is inferior to Evis unless you're stacking it with Climactic Flourish
** As seen above, Attack benefits Pyrrhic more than it does on Evis. Unbuffed at 1000TP Evis > Pyrrhic (Terpsi), but at capped attack (Dynamis) it's the other way around. On Delve Fodder it takes only ~125 attack more from unbuffed for Pyrrhic to get better. On serac Rabbits it takes ~425 attack. It has to be said though that Evis benefits from additional TP whereas Pyrrhic does not. Pyrrhic (T) can be a very viable option, sometimes better than Evis, but on high level targets it's unlikely to overtake it unless you get an insane amount of buffs or start stacking Flourish III stuff.
*** As noted elsewhere, attack stacks really nice on Dancing Edge, at capped attack damage is virtually the same on Serac Rabbits (reduced crit rate) at 1000TP. There's still difference on lower level targets of course, favouring Evis. Furthermore TP increases Evis' damage whereas it does nothing to Dancing Edge (if you're acc capped)

I think Exenterator is skippable on DNC too. Tbh I don't see many uses for it on DNC anymore, if at all. Other than SC properties maybe? But honestly no, Rudra, Evis and Pyrrhic for Terpsi olders are just too much better.



Out of curiosity, why does Evisceration perform so much better on DNC than it does on BRD? Is it a matter of the additional Crit Damage+ gear available on DNC? More dDex for increased crit rate maybe? (hmmm...)
But it's just one item, Charis Feather, in my setup. Difference between Rudra and Evis seemed larger on BRD (with Evis further down below, compared to Rudra/Evis situation on DNC)


Edit:
Updated list and comments in sight of the newfound Crit rates for Evis (10/25/50, previous test was performed with 10/20/20)

[Byrthnoth]

It depends on your attack/target. Evisceration shits on all other options if you have low Ratio but is surpassed by a Terpsi PK or RS at high ratio. Dancer also gets Critical Attack Bonus and probably has more DEX in gear than BRD. Against high end targets, Evisceration is probably the only WS you should be using.

[Sechs]

It depends on your attack/target. Evisceration shits on all other options if you have low Ratio but is surpassed by a Terpsi PK or RS at high ratio.

I think it also kinda depends on how much you're over buffed. Elvis gets lower returns from att compared to pyrrhic. But then again evis benefits from feather step and tp over 1000 whereas pyrrhic does not.
I
Is rudra that bad on really high level targets? It doesn't really take that much tp for it to overtake other options.guess it's an option for when for some reason you end up at those tp rates or for when you can afford to waste maneuvers for climactic?

[Ophannus]

Stardiver is best for drg, on 115ish content, with meat, doing about 4700-5600. Drakesbane is weaker than stardiver even with mythic, ranging about 3700 upto 6.3k but more on the lower side than higher even with huginn and shit. Camlanns is doing a pretty consisitent 4700-5k. Did some AA Galka and drakes/star were doing anywhere from 1800-2.5k and camlann was doing a consistently higher about 3-low4k. Seems like camlann is best when attack starved, stardiver is best with high attack. Drakes just i dunno seems weaker with the attack penalty and lower wsc but i guess with full buff and angon/dia it can spike higher than stardiver, just has a low crit base crit compared to VS/CDC, and all we have is rancorous mantle and claymore grip for crit rate :/
Any other ryuno drgs getting different results? Might have to just get am3 with drakes and then spam merit ws like other nythic weapon jobs now

[ccl]

Does resolution still need testing or is it tested and drk/run/war spreadsheet are updated already?

[Indalecia]

People have been gathering data on it but it is not complete. I'm currently doing scythe ws's.

[ccl]

Okay thx

Bleh so much for testing, they broke Asura, maybe I'll do it later

[Indalecia]

Speaking of which...

Entropy

stats/gear:

Spoiler: show

------------------------------------------------
119 Apocalypse   
107 STR / 94 INT / 71 MND
440 Scythe Skill
842 attack
143tp per swing (+1 stp) / 513 delay / drk/thf
Crit. Att. Bonus Job trait

Wild Rabbits, West Ronfaure-North sandy exit
------------------------------------------------
Entropy (1/5)
TP     WS
1001 > 911
1022 > 923
1001 > 914
1001 > 932
1001 > 905
1000 > 864

2002 > 1479
2000 > 1521
2000 > 1487
2000 > 1507
2000 > 1492

3000 > 2450
3000 > 2414
3000 > 2378
3000 > 2462