Israel vs. Gaza round 99

[Rhyis.]

Sorry but shouldn't have rolled Gaza as starting area if you didn't want hard mode gameplay.

noobs

[Meresgi]

The problem is, it wasn't anathema to the concept of America to give Native Americans citizenship and voting rights.

Israel is an explicit ethnostate, there is no "bringing Palestinians into the fold" on the table.

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Not to mention that the current state of Native Americans after capitulating and "rolling over" to the superior force is fucking abysmal. Go to any southwest state and see the horrible state of the reservations. Dated a Navajo chick for a bit while in NM and just hearing about the shit, her family didn't have basic things like electricity or running water until recently in parts, had to use an outhouse for the family.

[Gredival]

The problem is, it wasn't anathema to the concept of America to give Native Americans citizenship and voting rights.

Israel is an explicit ethnostate, there is no "bringing Palestinians into the fold" on the table.

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It was for nearly two centuries. We perpetually encroached on the concessions we gave them and they didn't get any autonomy back until FDR.

Also I'm pretty sure Israel will give them second-class citizenship (and eventually something approaching the "equality" we give indigenous in America) over a two-state solution.

That may be the logical outlook but that's never going to happen long term. Israel will abuse it's power again, Hamas will retaliate again, Israel will start murdering random Palestinian citizens in retaliation and bomb a few schools and hospitals.

Part of the bootlicking requires that the Palestinians forsake Hamas to accept the Yoke of Israeli authority.

[Meresgi]

Part of the bootlicking requires that the Palestinians forsake Hamas to accept the Yoke of Israeli authority.

Wait are you serious? Most Palestinians don't want Hamas, it's been forced upon them and yet they are getting merked by Israel because of their "support". Are the media folks who have been killed Hamas supporters too? What are they supposed to do? Overthrow Hamas while barely being able to feed themselves and in poverty?

Also I'm pretty sure Israel will give them second-class citizenship

Have you read the stories of people with the special IDs, living in fear it can be just stripped away from them at any point in time or during a car accident having to send specific people to different hospitals depending on their citizenship status?

https://www.curbed.com/2023/10/pales...ints-book.html

[Zetanio]

i like the part when people wake up to settlers in their house moving their stuff out

[Gredival]

Wait are you serious? Most Palestinians don't want Hamas, it's been forced upon them and yet they are getting merked by Israel because of their "support". Are the media folks who have been killed Hamas supporters too? What are they supposed to do? Overthrow Hamas while barely being able to feed themselves and in poverty?



Have you read the stories of people with the special IDs, living in fear it can be just stripped away from them at any point in time or during a car accident having to send specific people to different hospitals depending on their citizenship status?

https://www.curbed.com/2023/10/pales...ints-book.html

Accept full Israeli takeover of Gaza and the West Bank as a condition for ending the war.

Remember I'm utilitarian. I don't really care about how horrible things are in a vacuum, I only care about max-min within the relevant set of conditions. Insofar as we don't believe a two state solution is possible, what is the optimal arrangement under the Zionist regime?

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[Tymon]

Extremely difficult to tell a Palestinian person (or anyone but an Israeli) living in the region to "accept" Israeli dominion when you have people like Ben Gvir with lifetime positions in government.

Even an Israeli state with Palestinians as second class citizens is a pipe dream when you have people in government that genuinely want to settle every inch of land and genocide everyone who isn't Israeli that lives there.

You can end the war, sure, but as long as ideologies like that have power it's a non starter.

[Meresgi]

Accept full Israeli takeover of Gaza and the West Bank as a condition for ending the war.

That's a crazy take. You're saying that they need to give up everything in order to end a "war"...it's not a war, it's a slaughter and genocide. Palestine =/= Hamas. Just like Al Qaeda =/= Afghanistan & Iraq.

[Gredival]

That's a crazy take. You're saying that they need to give up everything in order to end a "war"...it's not a war, it's a slaughter and genocide. Palestine =/= Hamas. Just like Al Qaeda =/= Afghanistan & Iraq.

Again irrelevant. What matters is not who is in the wrong, it is what is achievable given the fact that the people in the wrong have the unshakeable backing of those with money and power.

[Andalusian girls]

Remember I'm utilitarian. I don't really care about how horrible things are in a vacuum, I only care about max-min within the relevant set of conditions. Insofar as we don't believe a two state solution is possible, what is the optimal arrangement under the Zionist regime?

a two state solution is both possible and the most likely long-term outcome. a complete ethnic cleansing of the region + Israeli incorporating the Palestinians into their state are less probable outcomes.

just wait

Didn't they recently just uncover mass graves of execution victims? Doesn't bode well for everyone sitting down for a soccer game anytime soon.

what's a word for near-eradication then? one team is on life support here meng

this is no way dimishes the weight of Israel's crimes but they have killed approximately 35,000 people according to Palestinian authorities. conversely the Palestinian population has increased 250% since 1990, from under 2 million then to over 5 million today, and their growth rate exceeds Israel's. there are far more Palestinians absolutely than there were, there are more Palestinians relatively; Israel is not killing its way out of this one unless they start murdering people by the millions. any steps in that direction, one hopes, would produce the long delayed international backlash and bring them forcefully to the table a la South Africa.

[Roranora]

yes and habitable land area per Palestinian is having hard times rn

[Meresgi]

Again irrelevant. What matters is not who is in the wrong, it is what is achievable given the fact that the people in the wrong have the unshakeable backing of those with money and power.

Achievable now or possibly in the future? 3 months ago media wasn't even noticing anything anti-Israel and now it's popping up more and more and support is at least growing. Will it do anything to sway this fuckfest? Probably not but better then milktoasting it with "Whelp is what it is, reroll plx"

[Anoat]

I will say one thing I have noticed much different in my personal life since October 6th is the number of my Jewish friends who, at least outwardly, did not have a firm opinion or feelings about the goings on in Israel has dramatically changed. Almost to a one they have switched their socials to non-stop pro-Israeli propaganda, changed their profile pics to the Israeli flag, stopped posting basically anything else BUT news stories about the conflict. It’s been a weird transition to see.

[archibaldcrane]

I have one Jewish friend who is annoyingly pro-Israel, one who is pro-Palestinian, along with one Palestinian friend. Otherwise the rest of my Jewish friends are being normal.

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[Andalusian girls]

i've noticed the phenomenon Anoat describes with several people, it's been insufferable and dismaying. an ugly tribalism extended all the way to endemic war crimes. thankfully my closest jewish friends are both firmly in the what the fuck is wrong with you Israel camp.

[Tymon]

I don't have any Jewish friends or acquaintances that I'm aware of but all of my friends have been pretty normal about it.

I do know one Palestinian guy, and from what I gather from the couple of times I've talked to him recently he is very much pro Hamas.

[Meresgi]

Students at Columbia broke a window apparently, NYPD showed up and busted down windows to arrest the kids because of their vandalism to that window! Can't be having property damage you fucking heathens

[Gredival]

Achievable now or possibly in the future? 3 months ago media wasn't even noticing anything anti-Israel and now it's popping up more and more and support is at least growing. Will it do anything to sway this fuckfest? Probably not but better then milktoasting it with "Whelp is what it is, reroll plx"

I'm not dismissing the situation. I'm saying that if the goal is a reduction in material violence, they need to actively change by submitting more to Israeli authority. Whether the final goal is slow progress within the Israeli state through integration or an eventual two-state solution post-submission like AG suggests, this violence doesn't stop by pointing out Israel's crimes. It stops when they are satisfied they have planted the boot firmly enough on Palestinians' throats, and the Palestinian people should take steps to reassure Israel that such a condition has been reached.

To use a crude analogy, it's like being black during an altercation with the police (in the U.S.) You know you are going to be treated unfairly, but if you want to maximize your chance of survival you can't try to get away with things that a white person would get away with. You take active steps to make protect yourself by submission to the injustice or you get shot.

I will say one thing I have noticed much different in my personal life since October 6th is the number of my Jewish friends who, at least outwardly, did not have a firm opinion or feelings about the goings on in Israel has dramatically changed. Almost to a one they have switched their socials to non-stop pro-Israeli propaganda, changed their profile pics to the Israeli flag, stopped posting basically anything else BUT news stories about the conflict. It’s been a weird transition to see.

The zionism has always been there, it just didn't seem necessary for most of them to express it until now. This is why I've expressed on the U.S. domestic political threads that I'd rather Biden double down on supporting Israel while pressuring Israel internally to reduce the damage than to come out aggressively. Backlash against perceived abandonment of Israel will be swift and much more severe than youth and Muslim protest voting.

My experience has been unchanged since my circle of Jewish acquaintances has always been unabashedly militantly zionist though.

Students at Columbia broke a window apparently, NYPD showed up and busted down windows to arrest the kids because of their vandalism to that window! Can't be having property damage you fucking heathens

Uh they occupied an entire building. A little bit more concerning than just breaking a window.

[thetruepandagod]

name 1 thing israel has done wrong

[Zetanio]

I will say one thing I have noticed much different in my personal life since October 6th is the number of my Jewish friends who, at least outwardly, did not have a firm opinion or feelings about the goings on in Israel has dramatically changed. Almost to a one they have switched their socials to non-stop pro-Israeli propaganda, changed their profile pics to the Israeli flag, stopped posting basically anything else BUT news stories about the conflict. It’s been a weird transition to see.

birthright works, fam.