Israel vs. Gaza round 99

**Correction** · 2014-07-23 12:11

Originally Posted by Gokku

and we have page after page of hate fueled at them.

????

**Gokku** · 2014-07-23 12:13

ratio change just makes me wonder why hamas is trying so hard at the cost of so many, but no one can explain to me the hate / outrage factor in the grand scope. The reaction to this situation vs many similar ones is disproportionate to the response given to others who do the same in other parts of the world.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-07-23 12:15

More people have been murdered in the first 5 months of this year in Chicago (population 2.7 million) than Israelis (population 7.9 million) killed by Hamas in the past 9 years combined.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-07-23 12:17

Originally Posted by Gokku

ratio change just makes me wonder why hamas is trying so hard at the cost of so many

Because for the past 47 years they've been in basically an open-air prison camp. They are embargoed from all but essential imports for survival, they have no hope for a better life, their homes are destroyed, they are facing military excursions where they see hundreds of their fellow civilians murdered every couple years, and all of this is due to being under Israel's thumb.

**Aurara** · 2014-07-23 12:40

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Because for the past 47 years they've been in basically an open-air prison camp. They are embargoed from all but essential imports for survival, they have no hope for a better life, their homes are destroyed, they are facing military excursions where they see hundreds of their fellow civilians murdered every couple years, and all of this is due to being under Israel's thumb.

And who caused this whole mess 47 years ago? Great Britan when they made the decision to take the land away from the Palestinians living there and gave it to the Jews. It wasn't even until the other Arab nations attacked Israel(less than a day after becoming the ONLY Jewish state in existence), and Israel kicked them to the curb twice, and took land from Egypt/Jordan. Israel asked for peace from Egypt, and in return gave back the Sinai(an area that is bigger than Israel itself). Israel also offered land back to other Arab nations for peace and they said no and refused. I guess I just feel no sympathy most of the time because Israel has tried again and again for peace and the Arab countries/Muslims in those areas refuse to recognize Israels right to exist as a Jewish state, and constantly want to destroy it.

**tyven** · 2014-07-23 12:54

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

More people have been murdered in the first 5 months of this year in Chicago (population 2.7 million) than Israelis (population 7.9 million) killed by Hamas in the past 9 years combined.

Holy shit this is a fucking crown jewel stat in the stat God's crown

**Edelweiss** · 2014-07-23 12:55

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Because for the past 47 years they've been in basically an open-air prison camp. They are embargoed from all but essential imports for survival, they have no hope for a better life, their homes are destroyed, they are facing military excursions where they see hundreds of their fellow civilians murdered every couple years, and all of this is due to being under Israel's thumb.

While we're at it, let's add in all the foreign nationals killed or injured attempting to circumvent the blockades and embargoes to deliver humanitarian aid (most recently that Gaza flotilla).

**Aurara** · 2014-07-23 13:06

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_5608612.html

Spoiler: show

France's politicians and community leaders have criticised the "intolerable" violence against Paris' Jewish community, after a pro-Palestinian rally led to the vandalizing and looting of Jewish businesses and the burning of cars.

It is the third time in a week where pro-Palestinian activists have clashed with the city's Jewish residents. On Sunday, locals reported chats of "Gas the Jews" and "Kill the Jews", as rioters attacked businesses in the Sarcelles district, known as "little Jerusalem".

Manuel Valls, France's prime minister said: “What happened in Sarcelles is intolerable. An attack on a synagogue and on a kosher shop is simply anti-Semitism. Nothing in France can justify this violence.”Religious leaders gathered for an interfaith service on Monday to call for calm, and Haim Korsia, the chief rabbi of France, and Hassen Chalghoumi, the imam of Drancy shook hands on the steps of the synagogue.

Francois Pupponi, the mayor of Sarcelles, told BFMTV that the violent attacks were carried out by a "horde of savages."

"When you head for the synagogue, when you burn a corner shop because it is Jewish-owned, you are committing an anti-Semitic act," interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve told reporters at a press conference at the local synagogue.French singer Enrico Macias (4th L), French writer Marek Halter (C), the Imam of the eastern Paris suburb of Drancy, Hassen Chalghoumi (4th R), the President of the Central Jewish consistory of France Joel Mergui (3rd R_ and Bishop of Pontoise for the Conference of Bishops of France Stanislas Lalanne (2nd R) pose during an ecumenical ceremony at the synagogue of Sarcelles, north of Paris
-----------------

Eighteen people were arrested for attacks on shops, including a kosher supermarket, a Jewish-owned chemist and a funeral home. Rioters, who carried batons and threw petrol bombs according to eyewitnesses, were yards from the synagogue when they were driven back by riot police who used tear gas.

“They were shouting: ‘Death to Jews,’ and ‘Slit Jews’ throats’,” David, a Jewish sound engineer told The Times. “It took us back to 1938.”

“We called our town 'Little Jerusalem' because we felt at home here,” Laetitia, a longtime Sarcelles resident, told France 24. “We were safe, there were never any problems. And I just wasn't expecting anything like this. We are very shocked, really very shocked."

Roger Cuikerman, head of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France told Radio France International: "They are not screaming, 'Death to the Israelis' on the streets of Paris. They are screaming, "Death to the Jews." The community was not just scared, but "anguished."

The government had banned a demonstration planned in Paris for Saturday, but posters were seen around the area which said “Come equipped with hammers, fire extinguishers and batons" and promised a "raid on the Jewish district”.

France has around half a million Jews, the biggest population in Europe, and around five million Muslims.

The Society for the Protection of the Jewish Community's figures suggest that anti-Jewish violence is seven times higher than in the 1990s, and 40% of racist violence is against Jews, despite them making up just 1% of the population.

In March 2012, a shooting spree by Mohammed Merah in the south of France left three French soldiers, three Jewish schoolchildren and a rabbi dead. The gunman claimed a connection to al Qaeda.

More than a thousand Jews have made aliyah (the term used when Jews immigrate to Israel) in the past 10 days, according to the Israeli government.

"I came because of anti-Semitism,” said teary-eyed Veronique Rivka Buzaglo, one of 430 immigrants who arrived from France the day before. "You see it in the eyes of people. I see it in everything," she told HuffPost.

Buzaglo says nothing would have stopped her from becoming an Israeli citizen this week - not even the rocket sirens frequently blaring in the south of the country, where she plans to live.

**Blubbartron** · 2014-07-23 13:07

Originally Posted by Aurara

And who caused this whole mess 47 years ago? Great Britan when they made the decision to take the land away from the Palestinians living there and gave it to the Jews. It wasn't even until the other Arab nations attacked Israel(less than a day after becoming the ONLY Jewish state in existence), and Israel kicked them to the curb twice, and took land from Egypt/Jordan. Israel asked for peace from Egypt, and in return gave back the Sinai(an area that is bigger than Israel itself). Israel also offered land back to other Arab nations for peace and they said no and refused. I guess I just feel no sympathy most of the time because Israel has tried again and again for peace and the Arab countries/Muslims in those areas refuse to recognize Israels right to exist as a Jewish state, and constantly want to destroy it.

Can you blame them? Technically they're right. Israel doesn't have a "right" to exist where it currently is. Conceptually they have a right to exist, but they need to acquire the land in a way that isn't morally wrong. It was unequivocally wrong for western nations to arbitrarily take land away from people (regardless of whether they were recognized as a sovereign entity) and give it to others. It was way more wrong for Israel to expand its borders through a bloody crusade against Palestinians in the surrounding areas (largely made up of people they had displaced through their original occupation).

Imagine for a moment that the U.S. hadn't eventually decimated the Native American population as they increasingly occupied the country - do you think that the Native Americans would be peaceful towards the people that had come in and forcefully removed them from their homes?

As a small aside, you keep saying "ONLY Jewish state in existence" as if it's a good thing that there be a nation specifically for Jews. That's pretty fucked up, man. No country should be reserved for people of a particular faith (or race, or whatever); all countries should treat all people equally. Imagine if the U.S. said it was the "ONLY Christian state in existence" or some other such nonsense, and actively refused people of other faiths from gaining citizenship, or paid people of the faith in other countries to emigrate and concentrate their global population.

**Aurara** · 2014-07-23 13:23

Originally Posted by Blubbartron

Can you blame them? Technically they're right. Israel doesn't have a "right" to exist where it currently is. Conceptually they have a right to exist, but they need to acquire the land in a way that isn't morally wrong. It was unequivocally wrong for western nations to arbitrarily take land away from people (regardless of whether they were recognized as a sovereign entity) and give it to others. It was way more wrong for Israel to expand its borders through a bloody crusade against Palestinians in the surrounding areas (largely made up of people they had displaced through their original occupation).

That area called Palestine, was also called Israel a long time ago before the Jews were cast out during the Diaspora(you know, the reason that there are Jews all over the world because Muslims ans Christians chased them out/slaughtered them by the tens of thousands). It's also important to state, Jews were there just as long as Arabs, because they split off from the same source, only because of small differences. So to say they "dont have the right" to exist there is absolutely preposterous.

Addressing the bold part, Israel took that land after the surrounding Arab nations decided to attack Israel...not once but twice. Once on Yom Kippur, one of the holiest of holidays in the Jewish calender. Israel GAVE THE LAND BACK, and asked for peace. Egypt said yes, and everyone else said no and refused because they refuse to recognize Israels right to exist as a Jewish state.

Imagine for a moment that the U.S. hadn't eventually decimated the Native American population as they increasingly occupied the country - do you think that the Native Americans would be peaceful towards the people that had come in and forcefully removed them from their homes?

I firmly believe that the Native Americans should not have helped the settlers, but did not expect the settlers to double cross and backstab them the way that they did.

As a small aside, you keep saying "ONLY Jewish state in existence" as if it's a good thing that there be a nation specifically for Jews. That's pretty fucked up, man. No country should be reserved for people of a particular faith (or race, or whatever); all countries should treat all people equally. Imagine if the U.S. said it was the "ONLY Christian state in existence" or some other such nonsense, and actively refused people of other faiths from gaining citizenship, or paid people of the faith in other countries to emigrate and concentrate their global population.

When I say the only Jewish state in existence I'm saying that it is the only country in the world which has a primarily Jewish population. Again, it wasn't up to the Jews to make Israel a state, it was Britan as I keep saying over and over and you keep overlooking that. Jews have just as much right to be in that area as the Palestinians since they have clear and obvious history there.

**Andalusian girls** · 2014-07-23 13:25

Originally Posted by Gokku

ratio change just makes me wonder why hamas is trying so hard at the cost of so many, but no one can explain to me the hate / outrage factor in the grand scope. The reaction to this situation vs many similar ones is disproportionate to the response given to others who do the same in other parts of the world.

because who gives a shit about Chechnya

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-07-23 13:34

Originally Posted by Aurara

And who caused this whole mess 47 years ago? Great Britan when they made the decision to take the land away from the Palestinians living there and gave it to the Jews. It wasn't even until the other Arab nations attacked Israel(less than a day after becoming the ONLY Jewish state in existence), and Israel kicked them to the curb twice, and took land from Egypt/Jordan. Israel asked for peace from Egypt, and in return gave back the Sinai(an area that is bigger than Israel itself). Israel also offered land back to other Arab nations for peace and they said no and refused. I guess I just feel no sympathy most of the time because Israel has tried again and again for peace and the Arab countries/Muslims in those areas refuse to recognize Israels right to exist as a Jewish state, and constantly want to destroy it.

Those countries haven't tried to destroy Israel in decades. It's only the Muslims living in the land that Israel illegally captured in the Yom Kippur war (Gaza and the West Bank) that they refuse to give autonomy to that are "trying to destroy them" - and they're doing so precisely because Israel keeps them living in terrible conditions that any sane person would want to change.

You seem to recognize the '67 borders like most sane actors in this conflict do...so why is it so hard to understand why the Palestinians are pissed when Israel doesn't retreat to those very same borders and give autonomy to Gaza and the West Bank?

**Edelweiss** · 2014-07-23 13:35

Originally Posted by Blubbartron

As a small aside, you keep saying "ONLY Jewish state in existence" as if it's a good thing that there be a nation specifically for Jews. That's pretty fucked up, man. No country should be reserved for people of a particular faith (or race, or whatever); all countries should treat all people equally. Imagine if the U.S. said it was the "ONLY Christian state in existence" or some other such nonsense, and actively refused people of other faiths from gaining citizenship, or paid people of the faith in other countries to emigrate and concentrate their global population.

This is an interesting subject. My late maternal grandmother was a Russian Jew andwas the only survivor of her family that escaped the Holocaust (and apparently the pogroms in Kiev following the Revolution as an infant); yet for like as far as my mother and my uncles can remember, she was rather adamantly against Israel existing as it does for these reasons. I remember her getting into an argument with some fellow Jews she knew through a Jewish-American organization she had been involved with when I was like 6; it turns out they were pissed at her for pointing out why the Palestinians responded to the Israeli oppression with violence during the First Intifada (among many other things they got all salty about, like the right of return being ridiculous and having an entire nation centered on religious identity).

Then again, she also criticised them for refusing to assimilate into America all the time as well, apparently (which was a fair point in retrospect, some of them were really forward with their disdain for non-Jews from what I remember from my early teens).

**Aurara** · 2014-07-23 13:36

How did they illegally capture the land? They got attacked and held onto it until they offered it back and got told no. I'm just confused as to your "illegal" claim.

This is an interesting subject. My late maternal grandmother was a Russian Jew andwas the only survivor of her family that escaped the Holocaust (and apparently the pogroms in Kiev following the Revolution as an infant); yet for like as far as my mother and my uncles can remember, she was rather adamantly against Israel existing as it does for these reasons. I remember her getting into an argument with some fellow Jews she knew through a Jewish-American organization she had been involved with when I was like 6; it turns out they were pissed at her for pointing out why the Palestinians responded to the Israeli oppression with violence during the First Intifada (among many other things they got all salty about, like the right of return being ridiculous and having an entire nation centered on religious identity).

Then again, she also criticised them for refusing to assimilate into America all the time as well, apparently (which was a fair point in retrospect, some of them were really forward with their disdain for non-Jews from what I remember from my early teens).

Edit: This is really interesting. I actually am familiar with Jews who are anti-Israel.

**Gokku** · 2014-07-23 13:36

why not juts leave? i mean shit i was CS levels of poor , packed all my shit in my car drove 1600miles cross the US and made my life better. isnt this the reason we have a huge immigration crisis because people are leaving the shitty areas for even a chance at better in south america. if they are willing to risk life etc without going to war why cant the people of gaza do the same?

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-07-23 13:39

Originally Posted by Aurara

How did they illegally capture the land? They got attacked and held onto it until they offered it back and got told no. I'm just confused as to your "illegal" claim.

It's widely held international norm that you cannot capture and occupy land via war. Yet Gaza and the West Bank has had a continual Israeli presence and under blockade since then. Israel should retreat back to their own country, they have not.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-07-23 13:41

Originally Posted by tyven

Holy shit this is a fucking crown jewel stat in the stat God's crown

I thought you'd appreciate that

**Aurara** · 2014-07-23 13:44

Originally Posted by Gokku

why not juts leave? i mean shit i was CS levels of poor , packed all my shit in my car drove 1600miles cross the US and made my life better. isnt this the reason we have a huge immigration crisis because people are leaving the shitty areas for even a chance at better in south america. if they are willing to risk life etc without going to war why cant the people of gaza do the same?

Unfortunately, most people cannot just pack up and leave due to conditions in the area. Also Archi they offered that land back and got told no.

**archibaldcrane** · 2014-07-23 13:47

Originally Posted by Aurara

Also Archi they offered that land back and got told no.

So they just illegally keep it for nearly 5 decades, despite the people living on it wanting to be an independent state? Monstrous.

**Aurara** · 2014-07-23 13:50

Except Israeli citizens have always been open to the idea of a Palestinian state, and have an overwhelming majority of favor about it. The problem is that the Palestinians were offered their land back, and refused and said no simply because they don't recognize Israel's right to exist period. I don't understand why you guys aren't getting that, since it is probably one of the biggest(if not the biggest) reason that there is no peace in the middle east. I don't know what you want them to do when they have tried time and time again to give the land back and just ask for peace and a ceasefire, and get told no for over 5 decades, WHILE being constantly attacked.

Thread: Israel vs. Gaza round 99

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