Israel vs. Gaza round 99

[Jaffar]

Your hyperbole, I see it.

I would think the death toll would be significantly higher if the Iron Dome wasn't in place. It had a 70% success rate in its first year in 2011. There's been more than 250 rockets fired at Israel since July 8, with the Dome taking out 56 (cnn article mentioned that they only shoot down rockets headed for populated areas).

A low death toll does does not necessarily mean they aren't under constant attack. It's hard to downplay Hamas' intent based on their inabilty to bypass Israeli defenses.

[Correction]

Why exactly should a country like South Korea or Iceland be barred from being able to control what sort of people they allow in to their country? Just curious. Alternatively is there a problem with homogenous societies?

Palestinians aren't immigrants.
Asking if there's anything wrong with Israel homogenizing their population is asking if there's anything wrong with ethnic cleansing.

[thetruepandagod]

Palestinians aren't immigrants.
Asking if there's anything wrong with Israel homogenizing their population is asking if there's anything wrong with ethnic cleansing.

I was more asking about a homogenous population attempting to remain homogenous, not a mixed population genociding the others.

Wasn't really talking about Israel at all which i guess is misleading in a thread about them, was mainly talking about countries that are already fairly homogenous, im aware that israel is a huge mixture of various different ethnic arabs etc.

[Blubbartron]

Why should a country be beholden to those from another country with another belief and set of societal beliefs if they don't want to be? Why should a country be forced to allow people into it that may or may not assimilate and mesh with the fabric of their society?

edit: one very minor example of un-meshable beliefs meeting in a rather homogenous country. http://www.japancrush.com/2014/stori...t-sensoji.html Saudi Wahhabi follower goes around smashing Buddha statues in a Buddhist country because of his belief. If Wahhabi is a religion that will be in constant conflict with my countries beliefs why should i be forced to let Wahhabi followers into my country if i don't want to, by letting them into my country either the person would have to go against his own beliefs or my country would have to change to accommodate him neither of which should be forced on an individual or a country.

This is a really terrible example for a variety of reasons:
1) Religious and cultural beliefs are incredibly fluid and changing all the time (that's why they splinter into different sects/sub-cultures so frequently).
2) People may self-identify as a particular culture or creed even though they don't actively partake in the rituals/requirements of those things.
3) People have the right to believe whatever the hell they want, but they don't have the right to do whatever the hell they want - destruction of statues is certainly illegal, and immigrants who don't follow legitimate, secular laws should get jailed/deported. But they should have the opportunity to prove that they can follow the laws instead of being rejected purely because of the circumstances of their birth.
4) That article didn't prove that he broke the statues out of some feeling of obligation from his Islamic beliefs. It's entirely possible he was simply partaking in a bit of vandalism.

Note the requirement that laws be secular for #3 - there can't be loopholes for bullshit like Mecca where you're not allowed into the city unless you can prove you're a Muslim.

[Correction]

I was more asking about a homogenous population attempting to remain homogenous, not a mixed population genociding the others.

Wasn't really talking about Israel at all which i guess is misleading in a thread about them, was mainly talking about countries that are already fairly homogenous, im aware that israel is a huge mixture of various different ethnic arabs etc.

From an evolutionary standpoint I think the numbers (on a variety of scales) favor genes that jumble around more than genes that converge. I note with humor that Iceland has an app to gauge how incestuous a coupling would be as a public health service.
There could be some correlation between relatively homogenous makeup and relative societal stability, but I wouldn't draw the conclusion that reduced diversity causes that stability. Japan went through generations of civil war without foreign influence, and its modern constitutional society was largely framed by western ideas of non-discrimination and free speech. There's also the secondary point that Japan's strict controls on immigration are hampering their ability to maintain their government programs and keep their aging population alive. They're dying a slow, stable, safe death.

[thetruepandagod]

This is a really terrible example for a variety of reasons:
1) Religious and cultural beliefs are incredibly fluid and changing all the time (that's why they splinter into different sects/sub-cultures so frequently).
2) People may self-identify as a particular culture or creed even though they don't actively partake in the rituals/requirements of those things.
3) People have the right to believe whatever the hell they want, but they don't have the right to do whatever the hell they want - destruction of statues is certainly illegal, and immigrants who don't follow legitimate, secular laws should get jailed/deported. But they should have the opportunity to prove that they can follow the laws instead of being rejected purely because of the circumstances of their birth.
4) That article didn't prove that he broke the statues out of some feeling of obligation from his Islamic beliefs. It's entirely possible he was simply partaking in a bit of vandalism.

Note the requirement that laws be secular for #3 - there can't be loopholes for bullshit like Mecca where you're not allowed into the city unless you can prove you're a Muslim.

It was just a very light example that i pulled out for just that. You are now arguing my example instead of answering my question.

Why exactly should a country like South Korea or Iceland be barred from being able to control what sort of people they allow in to their country? Alternatively is there a problem with homogenous societies?

Why can a country not bar immigration for whatever reason they want to? Why must they have open borders to all comers(for the most part obviously it's common to bar felons etc)

From an evolutionary standpoint I think the numbers (on a variety of scales) favor genes that jumble around more than genes that converge.
There could be some correlation between relatively homogenous makeup and relative societal stability, but I wouldn't draw the conclusion that reduced diversity causes that stability. Japan went through generations of civil war without foreign influence, and its modern constitutional society was largely framed by western ideas of non-discrimination and free speech. There's also the secondary point that Japan's strict controls on immigration are hampering their ability to maintain their government programs and keep their aging population alive. They're dying a slow, stable, safe death.

There is actually a fairly large amount of study that shows that more diverse groups tend to lead to less stable societies, i'm not really arguing for the benefit or downside of homogenous societies my initial question was just why can't a country be allowed to bar immigration as they see fit? Also i specifically used south korea/iceland initially and left out japan since im aware that japan is currently talking about upping immigration to 200,000 skilled immigrants a year to combat their extremely lopsided age demographics and shrinking population/workforce.

[Blubbartron]

From an evolutionary standpoint I think the numbers (on a variety of scales) favor genes that jumble around more than genes that converge.
There could be some correlation between relatively homogenous makeup and relative societal stability, but I wouldn't draw the conclusion that reduced diversity causes that stability. Japan went through generations of civil war without foreign influence, and its modern constitutional society was largely framed by western ideas of non-discrimination and free speech. There's also the secondary point that Japan's strict controls on immigration are hampering their ability to maintain their government programs and keep their aging population alive. They're dying a slow, stable, safe death.

I was going to touch on the evolution aspect as well, but it's a bit of a quagmire. If I remember what I was reading, you only need a population of about 10,000 organisms to have sufficient genetic diversity for a species to thrive. However, evolution also applies as a more general concept (not simply biological evolution), and I think it's definitely true that having people of different backgrounds and perspectives is valuable for generating new ideas and concepts. If everyone in your society believes the same thing, and approaches problems in the exact same way, you'll never improve or grow. We need the differences to compare and to test what works better.

[Blubbartron]

It was just a very light example that i pulled out for just that. You are now arguing my example instead of answering my question.

Why exactly should a country like South Korea or Iceland be barred from being able to control what sort of people they allow in to their country? Alternatively is there a problem with homogenous societies?

Why can a country not bar immigration for whatever reason they want to? Why must they have open borders to all comers(for the most part obviously it's common to bar felons etc)

Oh, maybe this whole tangent was caused by a small misunderstanding - I wasn't saying they can't ban immigration altogether. I was saying that they can't (rather, shouldn't) decide who is allowed to immigrate and who isn't based on shitty, discriminatory reasons. Denying immigration altogether isn't discrimination because everyone is being treated equally.

[Correction]

my initial question was just why can't a country be allowed to bar immigration as they see fit?

They can definitely regulate it, but I reckon everyone recognizes how orthogonal this question is to the state of Israel. Winding it back a bit, the establishment of a 'Jewish state' is not a universally embraced notion, since it implies non-secular, undemocratic roots and in a practical sense defines a second-class citizen from the get-go. Examining that it's not hard to see why someone would say 'hold up it isn't moral to build a nation based on some bullshit interpretation of millennia-old scrolls and tablets allegedly handed down by a magical invisible skyfather.' It wasn't a clean slate. Pretending like it was, and that it's now surrounded by enemies trying to wipe them out is extremely disingenuous.

[thetruepandagod]

k we pretty much on same page then have some IDF forces.

[Waraji]

Hamas just saying no cease fire without end to blockade. Seems reasonable, if you didn't already want them dead that is.

[Andalusian girls]

it would be more reasonable if they agreed to stop smuggling in rocket parts as they do whenever the blockade is even partially lifted

[Andalusian girls]

I was more asking about a homogenous population attempting to remain homogenous, not a mixed population genociding the others.

whenever you adopt positions advocated by by neo-Nazis, Voldemort, and, worst of all, Tony Abbott, you should really rethink some things

[quannum]

whenever you adopt positions advocated by by neo-Nazis, Voldemort, and, worst of all, Tony Abbott, you should really rethink some things

hitler breathed air, you breathe air, you should really rethink breathing air.

[Pirian]

hitler breathed air, you breathe air, you should really rethink breathing air.

people don't hate hitler for breathing, they hate him for his ideas (and the whole genocide thing)

[quannum]

so attack the idea

[Byrthnoth]

That looks like what just happened.

[quannum]

i don't see anything against "homogenous population attempting to remain homogenous"

[Drex]

More people have been murdered in the first 5 months of this year in Chicago (population 2.7 million) than Israelis (population 7.9 million) killed by Hamas in the past 9 years combined.

not enough dead pretty white girls and people are bored of plane crash coverage, so stirring the jew/muslim pot is a reliable clickbait fallback

[thetruepandagod]

don't JonBenet this thread u mook