Israel vs. Gaza round 99

[Rhyis.]

it's kinda funny that in the zilart era you could wear gear you used in qufim like the spike necklace and beetle earrings basically to endgame, and until staves and af mages could basically be naked and nobody would notice the difference

[Gredival]

it's kinda funny that in the zilart era you could wear gear you used in qufim like the spike necklace and beetle earrings basically to endgame, and until staves and af mages could basically be naked and nobody would notice the difference

Gimps without Peacock Charm not allowed into Sky shells!

[Tymon]

There's no good way to have a variety of gear that is ACTUALLY WORN in MMOs.

Games like FFXI and early WoW, you have huge amounts of gear but only a tiny fraction of it is any good, so good players all wear the same stuff, it becomes the meta, none of the other gear ends up mattering.

Modern MMOs address this by basically having gear you wear and gear you transmog. Stuff that's actually hard always drops gear that you wear and there's no variety. You put on the shiny with a higher item level. Then you have vanity content or old content to get gear you transmog for the variety.

I can't really think of a game that's ever come out with legitimate horizontal progression that made any sense.

[Tymon]

If "FFXI Classic" came out today it would be the most toxic shit imaginable. Everybody would be Gredmaxxing and require meta BiS shit like classic WoW. Except that would mean the economy would be 1000x more insane than it already was. Imagine the camps for shit like O Kote or PCC. Hundreds of people trying to kill Lizzy. Wouldn't work at all. It only barely worked back then because people were so unaware of how the game worked and didn't care as much about minmaxxing. And the competition for stuff like PCC was still insane, even then.

[Gredival]

I mean, let's not forget XI didn't have a bunch of garbage gear, either. Pretty much everything before 75 was mostly bland shit with minor stat boosts if you were lucky. 75 cap wasn't super interesting, either, but at least you started seeing more Haste.

I think this is almost all games; there's not a lot of investment in gear before the terminal level because you level past it so fast.

FFXI was maybe an exception to that because the leveling process was so long it was worth investing in things like Peacock Charm, Empress Pin, O-Kote, and Leaping Boots. But end game was basically AF with some unique valuable gear on HNMs (Strider Boots, Speed Belt, Haubergeon/Scorpion Harness).

Zilart is what replaced/augmented that gear, but it wasn't until the end of CoP is when I think gear spread was good when Limbus gear balanced the game for the non-Sky jobs. Jobs that couldn't wear the Shinjin God gear were severely gimped just by comparison to a class that got Haidate access.

When was the last time you felt that excitement when you first killed the kings, DL, Odin, etc...? Shit was fucking dope

Never, and that's why I'm a depressed fuck.

I can't really think of a game that's ever come out with legitimate horizontal progression that made any sense.

Literally 75 cap FFXI did it.

Haste set, TP set, WS set, specialized gear for certain skills/spells, resistance set... There was rarely ever a true end game item that got outright replaced (before Abyssea) for its particular use. The most you got was items with multiple usages getting narrowed down to a singular use.

If "FFXI Classic" came out today it would be the most toxic shit imaginable. Everybody would be Gredmaxxing and require meta BiS shit like classic WoW. Except that would mean the economy would be 1000x more insane than it already was. Imagine the camps for shit like O Kote or PCC. Hundreds of people trying to kill Lizzy. Wouldn't work at all. It only barely worked back then because people were so unaware of how the game worked and didn't care as much about minmaxxing. And the competition for stuff like PCC was still insane, even then.

That is literally how you keep gear mattering and old content relevant. There's a reason people still needed Sky gear after CoP came out, why we still ran Limbus and Dynamis after ToAU...

The inconvenient truth is that a good sandbox needs "have-nots."

[arus2001]

I look to it more as gear being potential job enhancers, and that arena, the bulk of XI gear fails outside of job-specific sets and some niche things here and there. Yeah, melees want ATK/ACC so if you had a Hauby or SH you were in a good place, but stuff that augmented JAs in neat ways or even things to juice up your subjob choice didn't really exist. Gear can still be interesting while leveling. You just have to have a dev that cares.

Ultimately, I have things I'd like XIV to do to change it for the better, but I know it'll never happen because it would infringe upon their endgame do the dance mentality and open up jobs in a way you wouldn't quite know what you're getting when one joins the group. META will exist in any form, but I'd rather X content is cleared in 15m instead of 20m kinds instead of you're just never clearing X without Y, period. XI had its narrowminded bandwagon moments, but I generally took my knowledge of the game at the time to try and think outside the box. If the players knew their shit, it usually worked. I still hate Salvage with a passion, though. Any content that strips earned power/progress away from the player, even temporarily, usually gets a thumbs down from me. Tossing niche NM conditions on top was just the nail in the coffin.

[Karbuncle]

I both loved and hated salvage.

I hated it cause I just didnt enjoy the content, and avoided it like the plague

I loved it because Salvage bans remain one of the greatest moments in this games history and no i'm not sorry for enjoying it :D

[Tyrath]

The inconvenient truth is that a good sandbox needs "have-nots."

And games that require this don't do as well financially.

[Tyrath]

see in this CV context, the HNMLS leader/officer and dynamis lead are quite different and arguably superior to having beaten very difficult 80s/90s action platformers. especially if your LS was good. you cleared zones and bosses and pushed progress. you made claims and controlled segments of the HNM hunt, etc. basically peak Gred and panda. you were appalled but resolute when Fafnir died in call-for-help. these guys and gals, they can dedicate themselves, they get results. they can coordinate dozens of people, weather silly drama, they will show up tomorrow because they were there all night. hire these people

the elite gamer is just that, and there's something resume-worthy here too, just not in same breadth and depth as LS/dynamis leaders, mostly cause other people were involved

Someone in my CoP static that I led told me their pregnant gf almost left them because of our static. Think that makes me qualified for CEO.

I was 15 playing with Europeans in the mornings. I wanted to finish it up before school started.

[Karbuncle]

And games that require this don't do as well financially.

Reminds me of this game "Throne and Liberty" a friend of mine played and was an annoyance to the point of having a reddit thread made about him, part of one of those build guilds or whatever who seemingly had the singular goal of just making the game as unplayable as possible for anyone else in order to hoard resources... then those same people wonder why their game dies or they dramatically rework it to knock down people like that.

Thing about making games like XI now-adays is theres so many people like Gred(Sorry Gred) who would come in ready to just optimize and monopolize the shit out of everything of value, likely as a part of a larger guild, to the point nobody else playing outside whatever top-guild circle came along and face-fucked the game could have fun and the game would die as a direct result of the very actions of the people who want this kind of game to exist again. Its an ouroboros if there ever was one.

I've played a few games who try to cater to that hard core crowd and they always eat their own tail by making it impossible for new players to find a footing so they give up, the population of the game dies, and the Devs either kill the game or desperately rework it to be more casual friendly. The very people who want these games are the ones who make it impossible for them to exist. womp.

[Tyrath]

For sure lol. No one wants to play in a space with people who want what Gred wants.

And a lot of the nonsense in FFXI worked for me at that point in my life. I was a teenager.

I don't have that kinda time to devote anymore. Hell I can't get myself to play 14 because I wanna spend my gaming time playing other stuff. What I miss most is the community from it and the events, even if I am forgotten most of the people I played with due to being so young at the time

[arus2001]

I'll admit to reading a lot of VRMMO fiction and the like and it's so bizarre how prevalent that mentality is in those stories alongside sitting there wondering if the author ever played a video game in their life. Just so much shit that would've gotten roasted by players even 15 or so years ago, let alone now.

Like imagine being a game dev and spending millions on a chunk of story content only one guild could see because once it's done it's gone forever. At least XIV's 1.0 demise made sense as a springboard for the rebirth.

[Salodin]

Gredmaxxing is my new favorite BG word

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[6souls]

I'll admit to reading a lot of VRMMO fiction and the like and it's so bizarre how prevalent that mentality is in those stories alongside sitting there wondering if the author ever played a video game in their life. Just so much shit that would've gotten roasted by players even 15 or so years ago, let alone now.

Like imagine being a game dev and spending millions on a chunk of story content only one guild could see because once it's done it's gone forever. At least XIV's 1.0 demise made sense as a springboard for the rebirth.

Shangri-La Frontier is serious business

[Gredival]

Someone in my CoP static that I led told me their pregnant gf almost left them because of our static. Think that makes me qualified for CEO.

I was 15 playing with Europeans in the mornings. I wanted to finish it up before school started.

I ran a zero sum DKP system that combats inflation by deducting DKP for people not present.

Some guy's dad died and I still gave him the absence penalties

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[Tyrath]

That's just not the brag you think it is bud.

[Salodin]

Being extraordinarily accomplished at something that doesn't matter is nice and sometimes fun, but it ain't a flex homey

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[kisada]

That's just not the brag you think it is bud.

it really, really isn't

[Byrthnoth]

I think maybe an FFXI classic would be less toxic in endgame than original ffxi was. Most HQs were 10x the cost and were basically +1 acc, which wouldn't even raise your hit rate by 1% most of the time.

Who would obsess over leaping boots now that we understand how acc translates to hit rate? They weren't even a guaranteed +1% hit rate. Etc.

Speed belt and peacock charm would be as expensive as ever, though.

[thetruepandagod]

If "FFXI Classic" came out today it would be the most toxic shit imaginable.

and that's a good thing.