Frontline General

[blowfin]

I'm just saying that strat is not as great as people make it out to be and was somewhat trying to help but it's cool.

Well yeah, we understand that. We've been saying shits situational though, and until you guys come and play on a JP datacentre where people were running around on mounts in week 2, i'm sticking with that.

Camping the middle has it's place, and it's a great strat for the Node, apart from that drones mean fuck all if you can't (or can) reliably hold down points.

But i'm mainly not convinced on the strength of:
- Premade group skewing your experience
- NA DF Pool being utter garbage

If you want to argue the merits of sending B to A or C as assist, consider the merits of having a 8-16 vs 8-16 for one base vs letting those 16 have that one base and having your 2 groups of 8 do something more productive, like cap 2-3 other flags.

Yeah there are obvious strategy adjustments when a battle is going to be protracted or you don't stand a good chance of winning. It's better to clear out in a lot of situations. Capping OP's is hit and miss though, you risk getting ganked, chances are the point will get taken back pretty quickly too. If it's a choice between potentially holding Markets/etc. for a long period, or running off to cap an OP, the long term goal comes first for me. Having said that, I'll often do things like break off from the group and cap an OP, when I know there's not going to be much resistance (protracted battle for the point).

Because of this, zerg team only ever holds 1-2 flags at a time usually and is never in mid (or they go to mid for node and still lose because they held jack of all shit the entire game).

Well that's a shit B team then, not much else to say.

[Seravi Edalborez]

I am curious about one thing in JP data centers (or even non-Primal NA); I would say a fair majority of solo queuers fall into this habit of "died once, don't listen/follow the party, do whatever" or, worse, follow the parties that are doing well and generally do nothing.

I'm curious if JP randoms are less prone to losing morale, basically.

Well that's a shit B team then, not much else to say.

Whole thing with the zerg "strat" is that there is no A/B/C. It's just a big Hunt-esque zerg squad that does nothing of importance.

[kisada]

This thread was insightful a few days ago, but now I think Judai is just looking for an oppurtunity to grab his e-nuts every other post and mention how he's dominating at a gimmick PVP side contest in a mediocre MMO. Seriously, we get it, you roll premades religiously and got it down to a science. Bravo. It doesn't need reiterated 4 times a day.

this thread is pretty fucking aids right now and this is why

[blowfin]

I am curious about one thing in JP data centers (or even non-Primal NA); I would say a fair majority of solo queuers fall into this habit of "died once, don't listen/follow the party, do whatever" or, worse, follow the parties that are doing well and generally do nothing.

I'm curious if JP randoms are less prone to losing morale, basically.

Nah they're organised and focused these days. I've seen what you're talking about in the first week or two, panic would set in when groups got nailed, and they would run around like headless chooks and generally turn winning situations into losing ones. It's not the case now though, everyone seems to know their roles really well. You're definitely the odd man out if you miss the centre in B team. There is also little to no dead weight (afk etc.) in any of the matches.

[Kaisha]

The problem I have with the splitting B-up strat for helping A/C is you risk B members dying, or the group you're assisting is brain dead enough that you won't win the flag for that sector at all, and thus wasted four member's time trying to cap the inevitable, and may not make it up in time also if the opposition is persistant.

If it's solo queue, I'd be more for two PTs to just murder a flag, then move up.

[Judai]

Well yeah, we understand that. We've been saying shits situational though, and until you guys come and play on a JP datacentre where people were running around on mounts in week 2, i'm sticking with that.

Camping the middle has it's place, and it's a great strat for the Node, apart from that drones mean fuck all if you can't (or can) reliably hold down points.

Nobody is talking about just camping middle. We go down and take every OP in between, unless there is a major fight at one. We just had a match, where both of our A and C lost their points in the first battle and we were still leading before the first set of even drones popped. Taking OPs is actually really easy in a group because most of the time, there is nobody at them, or maybe 1-2 people who pose no threat. As for A/C, they should almost always push to OP if they win(but leave one healer behind to guard the point) because that gives the enemy less time to regroup and now have to split their attention. Do they see if we left Markets/Temple unguarded or do they take their OP back?

You also didn't seem to get that last comment. He was saying all 3 alliances go together and just make a zerg ball to try and kill everyone and take each point. (which is dumb as hell and super lulz worthy because that team just loses badly)

We also already have mounts and some have had them for a couple weeks, so I don't get that comment.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Nah they're organised and focused these days. I've seen what you're talking about in the first week or two, panic would set in when groups got nailed, and they would run around like headless chooks and generally turn winning situations into losing ones. It's not the case now though, everyone seems to know their roles really well. You're definitely the odd man out if you miss the centre in B team. There is also little to no dead weight (afk etc.) in any of the matches.

Ah, that would be a big difference in my experience then. I can think of a dozen FL regulars on Primal in Flames (and from the few I played on alt, Adders) who routinely underperform (see Kaisha's wall of fail a few posts back), don't listen, or do both and argue in /alliance about it. Having all of a pug B be in mid on time and alive is pretty rare.

More often than not A or C will lose their side, complain in /a, and then run around for the rest of the match. We'll tell them to go take OP instead but once they get destroyed once it's generally over. Snowball effect here.

It's just especially disappointing given that with how few people give a damn about PvP in the NA group, you always see the same faces doing the above. You would expect them to either improve or quit after getting yelled at for a dozen matches across the nights.

[kisada]

what's your adders alt name?

[blowfin]

You also didn't seem to get that last comment. He was saying all 3 alliances go together and just make a zerg ball to try and kill everyone and take each point. (which is dumb as hell and super lulz worthy because that team just loses badly)

Yes I possibly didn't get it because the core concept is totally deranged.

Nobody is talking about just camping middle.

Yes I understand that. You're swapping some support for A/C or go for OP's. That's fine, like I said a few posts ago that's something I do if the situation is right.

Having all of a pug B be in mid on time and alive is pretty rare.

It's not uncommon for party leaders to actually macro the next pop time or call when you need to split for the centre. We're well trained.

[Berabouman]

Since someone asked - I play on a JP data center (Tonberry to be exact) and while I haven't exactly done a lot of PvP, the Japanese in general seem to be very organized and efficient about Frontlines (as in the norm) I didn't see any "running around like a headless chicken" but I wasn't experienced enough to really know what strategies were being used. I know that camping the middle is pretty common, and they rarely attacked unless their force outnumbered the other.

Also, there was very little chatting going on, whether in /p or /shout. I think there were less than 10 messages for the entirety of the match once.

[Sepukku]

I'm just saying that strat is not as great as people make it out to be and was somewhat trying to help but it's cool. Then, the only person in here suggesting MND gear was Spider and basically everyone else said that was retarded. My bad if I happen to point out when people are wrong or suggest they try something else, but people really like to argue with me lately for some reason.

Don't get all salty Sep, hockey season is soon and we can hate each other plenty then.

I fucking hate you year round and based on this thread, I'm not the only one.

[Vlorsutes]

It's not uncommon for party leaders to actually macro the next pop time or call when you need to split for the centre. We're well trained.

It may not be uncommon for party leaders to do that, but from all the losses I've incurred, it doesn't matter if you tell them or not, because those that don't want to go up won't go up. I've had B teams refuse to leave one of the outlying areas (Manors, Markets, etc) even though it wasn't being attacked or anything, simply because, and I quote, "The middle's not worth it".

[kisada]

lol. i have had so many people straight up REFUSING to go mid cause of that reason. they freak out over one flag being lost and it's all over. the worst is when it's the healers, though who think they should be doing anything but healing your party.

[kisada]

omfgggggggggg i just did the most dmg my alliance on pld

adders so awful

[Spider-Dan]

This thread was insightful a few days ago, but now I think Judai is just looking for an oppurtunity to grab his e-nuts every other post and mention how he's dominating at a gimmick PVP side contest in a mediocre MMO. Seriously, we get it, you roll premades religiously and got it down to a science. Bravo. It doesn't need reiterated 4 times a day.

Not only does he roll premades, but his premades can apparently control the actions of the other parties on his team! So advanced.

Then, the only person in here suggesting MND gear was Spider and basically everyone else said that was retarded. My bad if I happen to point out when people are wrong or suggest they try something else, but people really like to argue with me lately for some reason.

Quick reminder: who was in here saying the best tactic to deal with being focused is to use your first 12 AP on 180 HP worth of VIT traits? I mean, while you're bringing up VIT-related strategies that were widely panned.

When you are playing FL in 8-man pre-mades, whatever strategy you are using is going to look like Jesus. Oh, just bring 2 AoE sleep and 3-4 BRDs to B every time to deny ramps... why didn't I think of that?

I'm surprised you haven't just come out and said "we camp enemy base every time and they have to pull 2 parties to deal with it, it's an unbeatable strategy!"

[Seravi Edalborez]

Quick reminder: who was in here saying the best tactic to deal with being focused is to use your first 12 AP on 180 HP worth of VIT traits? I mean, while you're bringing up VIT-related strategies that were widely panned.

And I still say that with the exception of Equanimity duration, nothing else is helping you in a given situation of being focused. Just for the "next time" you are focused.

Who in here is "widely-panning" using VIT on healer except you?

I'm surprised you haven't just come out and said "we camp enemy base every time and they have to pull 2 parties to deal with it, it's an unbeatable strategy!"

It kind of is and doesn't require a premade either. "Unbeatable" is a little strong but spawn/OP harassment tends to work because other teams tend to trickle in and get picked off instead of pushing together. They waste all their time trying to get their OP back while you have 3-4 flags and mid.

The counter to this is the same as any counter: take something easier. A party here means no party somewhere else.

[Spider-Dan]

For the example of having a BLM Night Wing the BRD: okay, now what? He uses Purify and Blast Shots you anyways. You can try to Swiftcast Sleep vs his Purify (or do it first and then Night Wing 2nd) but it's generally too late at that point.

Presuming that all parties involved have Purify/Night Wing/Swiftcast/etc., how are the 2-3 people standing at the top of the ramp at a resource advantage against the ~8 coming up?

If you want to argue the merits of sending B to A or C as assist, consider the merits of having a 8-16 vs 8-16 for one base vs letting those 16 have that one base and having your 2 groups of 8 do something more productive, like cap 2-3 other flags.

The 16 people at A aren't just going to stand there when the opposing A runs away; their B would most likely either head to mid, or cap the nearby OP. But either way, if you're talking about having "2 groups of 8" go cap other flags, then you're really just making the argument that you'd rather have B cap an OP for ~1 minute (before they head to mid) than have B help A/C win their initial skirmish. That's hardly a question with a definitive answer.

And I still say that with the exception of Equanimity duration, nothing else is helping you in a given situation of being focused. Just for the "next time" you are focused.

Equanimity duration isn't an "exception" when talking about surviving being focused.

And you keep saying "any given situation" while downplaying the entire point of recasts: you get to survive more situations. By your own math, upgrading recasts could give you two extra focus "survives" per match. I doubt 180 HP will do the same.

Who in here is "widely-panning" using VIT on healer except you?

You and Judai are the only ones here that have advocated spending your first 12 AP on VIT traits over ability upgrades. Anyone else that commented on early-rank VIT traits said they weren't worth it.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Presuming that all parties involved have Purify/Night Wing/Swiftcast/etc., how are the 2-3 people standing at the top of the ramp at a resource advantage against the ~8 coming up?

They aren't. If anything it's very unlikely for them to both be at resource-neutral depending on what each B did (for example, the B that went to help C had their BLM pop Night Wing). A B already camping ramps is at an initiative advantage. Because people going up top are typically on their mounts when they enter range. Moreso if the people camping top are being more subtle about watching by peeking with their camera and not just standing at the top of the ramp like "yo whats up".

There are a thousand little variations of how this plays out but the group coming up "late" is almost never on an even playing field in my experience. Can say "look up" or "get off mount earlier" but the point is that people up top can see you coming long before they ever see your nametag. The people at bottom will at best assume someone is up there already or at worst just mosey on up and get slept on their mount and be useless for upwards of 15 seconds if not outright killed.

The best place you can be is just after the halfway point in the ramp because then the people camping ramp have to be smarter about what angle they knock you off from.

The 16 people at A aren't just going to stand there when the opposing A runs away; their B would most likely either head to mid, or cap the nearby OP. But either way, if you're talking about having "2 groups of 8" go cap other flags, then you're really just making the argument that you'd rather have B cap an OP for ~1 minute (before they head to mid) than have B help A/C win their initial skirmish. That's hardly a question with a definitive answer.

You would be surprised how long you hold that flag for just by virtue of nobody sending anybody to check their OPs quickly. Having 4 flags for even 10 ticks before going down to 2 flags per GC is a massive boon. You gained 80 points in that 30 seconds, where having only 2 would have gotten you 20.

Equanimity duration isn't an "exception" when talking about surviving being focused.

And you keep saying "any given situation" while downplaying the entire point of recasts: you get to survive more situations. By your own math, upgrading recasts could give you two extra focus "survives" per match. I doubt 180 HP will do the same.

You tend to remember the situations you survived by popping Attune/Equan. Can you think of many times you survived without popping them? Or dying, looking at the cooldown, and thinking "gosh I sure wish this was up 1 minute sooner" and it would have saved you?

You can't quantify that because you can't quantify the way any given match is going to go. Been in matches where I "fought" on a point for a straight 5 minutes and would have been able to pop big cooldowns multiple times with or without the reduction and others where people trickled in outnumbered 2 to 1 and I never had to pop a thing. And everything in between.

You and Judai are the only ones here that have advocated spending your first 12 AP on VIT traits over ability upgrades. Anyone else that commented on early-rank VIT traits said they weren't worth it.

Nobody else commented on it period so that's hardly indicative of anything.

Side note: I hope they add more concise point breakdowns in the match results screen so people can see just how much of their score was kills / caps / flags/ mid.

[Spider-Dan]

A B already camping ramps is at an initiative advantage. Because people going up top are typically on their mounts when they enter range. Moreso if the people camping top are being more subtle about watching by peeking with their camera and not just standing at the top of the ramp like "yo whats up".

There are a thousand little variations of how this plays out but the group coming up "late" is almost never on an even playing field in my experience. Can say "look up" or "get off mount earlier" but the point is that people up top can see you coming long before they ever see your nametag. The people at bottom will at best assume someone is up there already or at worst just mosey on up and get slept on their mount and be useless for upwards of 15 seconds if not outright killed.

This is basically a drawn-out way of saying, "My premade group will outplay DFers." You concede that 8 > 3 when it comes to CC resource advantage, but then you say that the people up top are hiding around the corners and using camera skills, while the people below are riding their mounts all the way up, looking straight ahead, and not checking their map to see if the people already up top are friendlies.

So far, this strategy involves specific pre-determined jobs playing better than people who are unaware of or unprepared for how to deal with them. Lots of strategies are great under those conditions, so for your FC mate to sit around saying, "you guys are morons if you don't understand that This Is The Clearly Dominant Strategy" is ridiculous.

You would be surprised how long you hold that flag for just by virtue of nobody sending anybody to check their OPs quickly. Having 4 flags for even 10 ticks before going down to 2 flags per GC is a massive boon.

So if I understand this correctly:

- Storm sends B and C to temple
- Flame A at temple immediately runs away/dies upon seeing 2 Storm parties
- Storm B and C, upon an instant domination of virtually unchallenged temple, neither cap Flame OP nor defend Storm OP
- Flame A (on the run/recovering from temple) and Flame B manage to cap all the OPs (unless you're saying Flame B is going to cap manor?)
- Adder B definitely did not go to markets, definitely did not attack any OPs, and is apparently not in mid camping ramps

While there are certainly valid counters to B+A/C tag-team, if your A/C group does not at least stall them and make them fight for it, you're effectively handing their B an instant flag and freeing them to go cause more havoc (and potentially skirmish with YOUR B) before mid, as well as virtually guaranteeing that you will have to defend your OP from the A/C at the flag you abandoned.

You tend to remember the situations you survived by popping Attune/Equan. Can you think of many times you survived without popping them? Or dying, looking at the cooldown, and thinking "gosh I sure wish this was up 1 minute sooner" and it would have saved you?

You can't quantify that because you can't quantify the way any given match is going to go.

This is nuance that would have been welcome when Judai was saying that anything less than 5/5 VIT accessories means you're a free kill. Can you think of the times that you lost a flag and there was an opposing healer with at least 1 MND accessory still alive?

Even you later said that you think the threshold is really around 3/5 VIT acc (if you haven't respec'ed).

Nobody else commented on it period so that's hardly indicative of anything.

Spoiler: show

It's... 6 VIT, isn't it?

Didn't they lower the bonus to 2 per tier?

That's 90HP. I certainly wouldn't put my points in that before pimping other skills out first.

Tbh I'd consider recast enhancements the most important, this isn't Wolve's Den and fighting doesn't just happen in short spurts.

I just don't see the point of sacrificing huge amounts of limited low-rank resources for the sole purpose of surviving LB.

Well, for one it'd be hilarious?

Although I guess you could technically argue that the person who said ability upgrades were certainly more important than 90HP might have thought that 180HP is worth it.

[Lucavi]

This is basically a drawn-out way of saying, "My premade group will outplay DFers."

Calling a spade a spade. I gotta agree with this. Why is anyone wasting time talking about "winning strats" when pre-made is included in 90% of these posts?

It is obviously both assumed and inferred that anyone running a pre-made is winning the majority of their matches. What do any of these nonsensical statements have to do with the original thread topic? How is any of this "informative" to the average player? Its dick-waving at this point.

Shit, we don't even have premade vs. premade. Can people stuff their cocks back into their pants and zipper up until we have an established way to premade vs. premade so we can settle these Machismo-infused grudges?