The Ferguson, Missouri thread

[Acevalefor]

I have been punched before. I have been knocked out before. At no point did I ever think that I had to kill the fucker that was punching me.

[guartz]

I have been punched before. I have been knocked out before. At no point did I ever think that I had to kill the fucker that was punching me.

Yea, same here. But you know this silly little thing, I wasn't wearing a badge at the time, and punching me in the safe doesn't fall under 18 U.S. Code § 111.

[NynJa]

I have been punched before. I have been knocked out before. At no point did I ever think that I had to kill the fucker that was punching me.

Did you think that the person was trying to kill you though?

[Nephlite]

Sorry, grownups are talking. Sit down until you're called.

So Neph, are you more inclined to believe Wilson is innocent, or just that the evidence doesn't support his guilt?

Even though he's a cop, I still believe the evidence.

mop the floor? Wilson also 6'4. Wilson also a trained police officer. Wilson also has a nightstick and a taser? I mean i like the cops odds in that fight. I have a feeling you would be making the same argument had DW strung him up from a lamp post tho. Since the beginning of this thread you've been on team "all blax are evil" and i really don't think that is likely to change. keep patting yourself on the back for not believing the blax man. You win

He didn't have a Taser. The ASP we carry is on a holster which he (Wilson) said it was positioned behind him when he was sitting. My rig is set up the same, where it's sitting behind my gun.

Wilson claimed he didn't carry a taser with him because it was too uncomfortable.

That and they only had one Taser for the whole department. It's a valid reason, really. If you don't feel comfortable with it, and you're not required to carry it, you opt not to carry it. When I got fat, I had to take my ASP off because it dug in to my side. Now it's okay, but back then, it sucked.

All I want to know is how you can confuse "life threatening" with "barely a scratch".

I'm trying to reason my way to why it's a justification of defense that he was being manhandled when the injuries don't match up.

And to answer your question Neph, I've never been pummeled but I have seen plenty of people getting the shit kicked out of them. They never thought they were going to die, so it leaves me wondering.

Why is such a crucial factor so subjective?

A lot of injuries (the severity) isn't usually apparent until much later.

That being said, it wasn't just the attack that made the Deadly Force threat that much worse, it was the fact that Wilson couldn't really defend himself being in the vehicle and was at a serious disadvantage. It's taught to us in training that if we are at a serious disadvantage (such as being on the ground or being subject to being exposed to chemical weapons, or an arm is disabled, or injury), it's a Deadly Force situation. Think of MMA fights where a fighter gets on top of another fighter and starts the "Ground and Pound". The Referee will stop the fight if it looks like the fighter can't defend himself, and a lot of times, there's no readily apparent injury to the one on the ground.

Yup and it's totally normal for a citizen to attack an officer while they are still in their vehicle. BTW, how are most Wilson's bruises on the right side of his face?

He had some on both sides, and the back of his head was bruised up and swollen. I guess he was trying to turn back towards Brown during the assault.

I have been punched before. I have been knocked out before. At no point did I ever think that I had to kill the fucker that was punching me.

It's different when you're a cop. If someone does it, your main concern is getting knocked out and someone taking your weapon. We're shown videos of cops getting assaulted and the subject takes the gun from the cop and shoots them afterwards. It's psychological training to teach you how to be paranoid about everything, same thing that we're taught in the Military.

[Sho]

I try not to waste neurons on people like you. You're not interested in discussing. If you were, you would know I'm asking questions out of curiosity to reconcile what I think versus what is.

You don't know me, so you don't know that and probably couldn't hope to understand that.

That's why I have no need to discuss anything with you. If you had the slightest clue how to hold an actual discussion without being an ignorant dick you might be worth talking to.

Just ignore Nynja, as he is a complete idiot who is also Canadian and thus has nothing to do with American matters. SephYuyX also an idiot who is quite racist to boot. Salodin is borderline troll/ignorant but at least he creates competent arguments from time to time. You ignore them right out you'll feel much better and 2/3 of them will go off and monologue argue with someone else.

The 12 year old case is pretty fucked up in the sense that the dispatcher didn't even relay the fact that the person calling in twice mentioned that it might be a toy gun. It really feels like a very bad game of Chinese whispers (Telephone) was played. Based on what happened here, people will start to analyze how the interaction between police and their dispatchers could often not have very relevant information that could change a situation from seemingly harmless to very dangerous and vise versa.

Back to Darren Wilson, the guy seriously looked like he simply slept on his side for a night and got a couple of red marks. I (and plenty of others around the world) probably expected to see a Darren Wilson that looked like he really got fucked up by Brown. The entire case proceedings were also really messed up, and I'm pretty sad to see that Neph is supporting it, despite the huge amount of flaws within it. Even so, I go back to my previous argument of a couple of weeks ago -- Brown didn't do anything that was worth having lethal force exacted on him, even if he really got fucked up by Brown. The way Wilson painted the story, all typical height male officers should be imminently threatened by 6'4"+ overlords who can breathe fire and flip cars with their pinky fingers. I believe in and understand shooting to kill when life of the officer and others is imminently threatened, but there should also be that much more training in shooting to incapacitate, and before that learning to accurately judge situations in real time. I also understand that all of this happens exceptionally fast -- within 2 to 10 seconds (Graham v Connor (1989)), but even then it only proves that police officers get more extensive training in shooting to kill rather than incapacitate or take other action. This was a situation where he could have just as easily bludgeoned Brown with a club, tasered or sprayed him and been justified in doing so.

Irony in both stories is that I was just at my girlfriend's sister's home for Thanksgiving, and both cases came up in conversation. She and her very conservative buddies also couldn't figure out why the case was expedited like it was without the evidence presented properly. She also couldn't understand why police officers would immediately shoot up a 12 yr old kid, who obviously looked like a kid, within 2-3 seconds, then incorrectly identify him as a 20 yr old, who would have been more worth shooting to kill. This is your typical six figure, right wing conservative person who you would think would be all to happy that the Darren Wilson case played out the way it did.

There's also the fact that the case changed between self-defense to fleeing felon and back again to self-defense, but I'll leave it alone for the rebuttal.

[Acevalefor]

It's different when you're a cop. If someone does it, your main concern is getting knocked out and someone taking your weapon. We're shown videos of cops getting assaulted and the subject takes the gun from the cop and shoots them afterwards. It's psychological training to teach you how to be paranoid about everything, same thing that we're taught in the Military.

I was joking, for the record.

Since you replied seriously though, this goes back to the need to stop training cops to be paranoid from the start. We have had this conversation before though. You disagree with me.

From what you said, it boils down to 1; having a gun. 2; fearing your gun will be taken. 3; acting as if the goal of every physical confrontation is to get your gun. 4; escalating to deadly force to stop assailant from taking your gun.

It's no surprise to me that in many cases of deadly force the officer(s) claim "he was going for my gun". You are taught to believe that from the start. Now, I know it is not reasonable in a society so bent on violence, but what happens when the gun is removed from the situation? What happens when you keep your gun in your car instead of on your body? And, since we are speaking of hypothetical situations that could never happen, couldn't wilson have simply stomped on the gas pedal and removed himself from physical harm instead of resorting to a gun (say he didn't have one). How else could he have responded instead of directly engaging the suspect?

[NynJa]

Just ignore Nynja, as he is a complete idiot who is also Canadian and thus has nothing to do with American matters. SephYuyX also an idiot who is quite racist to boot. Salodin is borderline troll/ignorant but at least he creates competent arguments from time to time. You ignore them right out you'll feel much better and 2/3 of them will go off and monologue argue with someone else.

I guess personal attacks are acceptable now here. Better ammend those rules because this guy aint even trying to subtly hide it. Tell us how you really feel buddy.

Its really fucking cute how whenever someone says something you dont like, its straight to "youre a racist troll", becuae you know, actually trying to generate a proper response to it would make you look foolish, so you just resort to the circle jerk and click bait media.

Its pretty astounding how all 3 names you dropped are the 3 names of people who arent parroting your "lynch darren wilson" narrative. Good luck with your circle jerk, try not to cum on each other too much.


I guess i shouldnt be surprised. These same people have problems understanding how someone who stole shit from a convenience store then attacked a cop wound up shot, then wonder why the rioters who are tossing rocks at the cops and setting buildings on fire and looting shit are getting tear gassed.

[Nephlite]

Just ignore Nynja, as he is a complete idiot who is also Canadian and thus has nothing to do with American matters. SephYuyX also an idiot who is quite racist to boot. Salodin is borderline troll/ignorant but at least he creates competent arguments from time to time. You ignore them right out you'll feel much better and 2/3 of them will go off and monologue argue with someone else.

The 12 year old case is pretty fucked up in the sense that the dispatcher didn't even relay the fact that the person calling in twice mentioned that it might be a toy gun. It really feels like a very bad game of Chinese whispers (Telephone) was played. Based on what happened here, people will start to analyze how the interaction between police and their dispatchers could often not have very relevant information that could change a situation from seemingly harmless to very dangerous and vise versa.

Back to Darren Wilson, the guy seriously looked like he simply slept on his side for a night and got a couple of red marks. I (and plenty of others around the world) probably expected to see a Darren Wilson that looked like he really got fucked up by Brown. The entire case proceedings were also really messed up, and I'm pretty sad to see that Neph is supporting it, despite the huge amount of flaws within it. Even so, I go back to my previous argument of a couple of weeks ago -- Brown didn't do anything that was worth having lethal force exacted on him, even if he really got fucked up by Brown. The way Wilson painted the story, all typical height male officers should be imminently threatened by 6'4"+ overlords who can breathe fire and flip cars with their pinky fingers. I believe in and understand shooting to kill when life of the officer and others is imminently threatened, but there should also be that much more training in shooting to incapacitate, and before that learning to accurately judge situations in real time. I also understand that all of this happens exceptionally fast -- within 2 to 10 seconds, but even then it only proves that police officers get more extensive training in shooting to kill rather than incapacitate or take other action. This was a situation where he could have just as easily bludgeoned Brown with a club, tasered or sprayed him and been justified in doing so.

Irony in both stories is that I was just at my girlfriend's sister's home for Thanksgiving, and both cases came up in conversation. She and her very conservative buddies also couldn't figure out why the case was expedited like it was without the evidence presented properly. She also couldn't understand why police officers would immediately shoot up a 12 yr old kid, who obviously looked like a kid, within 2-3 seconds, then incorrectly identify him as a 20 yr old, who would have been more worth shooting to kill. This is your typical six figure, right wing conservative person who you would think would be all to happy that the Darren Wilson case played out the way it did.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the twelve year old, just simply because it's a consideration when responding, however, if indeed he had the gun out and it was brandished as the officers arrived and it looked real enough, that would trump the "it's probably fake" scenario. The video isn't clear enough, but it does appear he pulls it out as they got on scene. Cops are trained to respond to the threat as soon as it's perceived, and the UOF continuum and the law does not dictate you wait until you're being shot at to respond with Lethal Force.

It appears to me that's probably the main issue with people is that perception is what's flawed based off of what I read here and on reddit. I dunno a good response to that, except the training and science behind responding to a Deadly Force threat prior to the threat being active is what saves the lives of the responder.

In regards to the Brown and Wilson thing, I said it before that injuries aren't immediately apparent right after the incident, and while it didn't appear that it was serious, keep in mind it's the totality of the circumstances that contributed to that threat. It was the combined actions of the assault and Wilson being at a serious disadvantage of being in the car and unable to properly defend himself/respond to the threat which contributed to the Deadly Force threat.

Everyone try this example of that perception I read a few days ago that you can practice on your own:

Grab a friend and two cases that can clip to your belt. Can be a cell phone holder, a flashlight holder, etc. Get in your car and roll the window down and put your seatbelt on. Have your friend reach through the window and grab you and try to keep you from reaching anything in your car to defend yourself. Try to push him away or try to defend yourself in the car. Now try to grab something out of one of your holsters and touch your friend with it. It works better if the "subject" is bigger than you are. Tell him to be aggressive, and tell him to not let you touch him with the object.

A lot harder than it looks, and depending on the department, Officers train for this exact scenario. I had to take a course outside of the department to learn this, and it was a civilian CCW course that teaches the responding CCW carrier to fire while inside the car and belted in.

Additionally, you do not shoot to incapacitate. You shoot to end the threat. You don't draw any weapon without the intent to kill whatever you're aiming at. You can decide not to fire the weapon, and the threat of that weapon is a use of force in itself, but you should be prepared to end that threat if you point that weapon at your target. Police are not taught to shoot to "incapacitate". We're taught to fire center mass, the biggest target. Firing at a leg, or a hand, or trying to shoot a weapon out of a hand is movie smoke and mirrors, and is dangerous, reckless, and negligent.

And again, based upon the testimony and forensics, Wilson did attempt to respond with another implement. Again, none were reasonable given the circumstances. Pepper spray doesn't always work, and it was pinned to his side and against the center console. His ASP was behind him and he was essentially sitting on it. The only other choice was the firearm, which Brown grabbed. That was the Deadly Force threshold. The totality of circumstances: attacked while belted in the car, a disparity of ability to respond to the assault, grabbing of a firearm, and a continuing threat after being shot.

I was joking, for the record.

Since you replied seriously though, this goes back to the need to stop training cops to be paranoid from the start. We have had this conversation before though. You disagree with me.

From what you said, it boils down to 1; having a gun. 2; fearing your gun will be taken. 3; acting as if the goal of every physical confrontation is to get your gun. 4; escalating to deadly force to stop assailant from taking your gun.

It's no surprise to me that in many cases of deadly force the officer(s) claim "he was going for my gun". You are taught to believe that from the start. Now, I know it is not reasonable in a society so bent on violence, but what happens when the gun is removed from the situation? What happens when you keep your gun in your car instead of on your body? And, since we are speaking of hypothetical situations that could never happen, couldn't wilson have simply stomped on the gas pedal and removed himself from physical harm instead of resorting to a gun (say he didn't have one). How else could he have responded instead of directly engaging the suspect?

Your first couple of points, I can address by simply telling you to do some ride-alongs or volunteer for a citizens academy. You'll see the perception real quick. Policing evolves to meet the threats that we have experienced, and is built around the dangers of the profession.

Keep the gun in the car, and you no longer have that ability to defend yourself when the threat presents itself. 95% of police encounters with Deadly Force happen within the reactionary gap (4-6 feet away from the officer). It's a no-brainer on that. I can show you a collection of Deadly Force encounters on video of police in the US where it's very clean cut Deadly Force that completely eclipses the amount of situations that occur in places like the UK, where the officer having the weapon nearby or already drawn saved their life.

As far as the hypothetical, there's a billion things Wilson could have done to stop Brown, but even those have their consequences. Hypothetically, he drives off with Brown clinging to the car and then he falls and accidentally runs him over, or strikes a kid because he's unable to pay attention to the road, or crashes in to something.

In the end, Wilson still had a job to do. He chased Brown, because he had to apprehend Brown. We're not trained to back down, or disengage, or run away with our tails tucked between our legs. We're trained to engage the threat that's before us, and we still have to take the person in to custody.

[Nephlite]

An article outlining the inconsistencies revealed during the Grand Jury inquiry that touches on why Darren Wilson was not indicted.

http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d28...9aea91c28dd462

[Sho]

Additionally, you do not shoot to incapacitate. You shoot to end the threat. You don't draw any weapon without the intent to kill whatever you're aiming at. You can decide not to fire the weapon, and the threat of that weapon is a use of force in itself, but you should be prepared to end that threat if you point that weapon at your target. Police are not taught to shoot to "incapacitate". We're taught to fire center mass, the biggest target. Firing at a leg, or a hand, or trying to shoot a weapon out of a hand is movie smoke and mirrors, and is dangerous, reckless, and negligent.

And again, based upon the testimony and forensics, Wilson did attempt to respond with another implement. Again, none were reasonable given the circumstances. Pepper spray doesn't always work, and it was pinned to his side and against the center console. His ASP was behind him and he was essentially sitting on it. The only other choice was the firearm, which Brown grabbed. That was the Deadly Force threshold. The totality of circumstances: attacked while belted in the car, a disparity of ability to respond to the assault, grabbing of a firearm, and a continuing threat after being shot.

It is as I thought. My bosses' son is a local cop so I'll discuss it with him when I get the chance later. I meant to press the issue as an alternate means to stop the threat from being a threat without killing him or her. It makes sense that lethal force is needed sometimes, just not in this scenario. We can toss out the now "shoot to incapacitate." How do you explain the fact that Brown stopped after fleeing, then? Not the altercation in the car, but fleeing from Wilson, then allegedly stopping and turning about face to surrender? It was self defense in the car, then it became a fleeing felon scenario which is also granted the use of lethal force in that area. He had now stopped after being shot -- does the case once again become self defense? Does Wilson continue off of the Fleeing Felon scenario?

Ironically I had argued this same argument with you a few days after Ferguson went down. I'll draw it out again after my work day if it hasn't been done so yet.

[Nephlite]

It is as I thought. My bosses' son is a local cop so I'll discuss it with him when I get the chance later. I meant to press the issue as an alternate means to stop the threat from being a threat without killing him or her. It makes sense that lethal force is needed sometimes, just not in this scenario. We can toss out the now "shoot to incapacitate." How do you explain the fact that Brown stopped after fleeing, then? Not the altercation in the car, but fleeing from Wilson, then allegedly stopping and turning about face to surrender? It was self defense in the car, then it became a fleeing felon scenario which is also granted the use of lethal force in that area. He had now stopped after being shot -- does the case once again become self defense? Does Wilson continue off of the Fleeing Felon scenario?

Ironically I had argued this same argument with you a few days after Ferguson went down. I'll draw it out again after my work day if it hasn't been done so yet.

This is just based off the forensics and the testimony from Wilson and another unidentified witness, but after Brown stopped, he charged Wilson again. The details of the distances aren't really clear, but the crime scene sketch puts the body and the shell casings in a proximity of 10-15 feet. Wilson fired 6 shots after the first charge, where Brown stopped again after he was hit once in the arm. He then charged again, where the final 6 shots traveled up his body and killed him.

The only conclusion I came to when examining all of the evidence, is that Wilson was still in fear for his life. I'm not discounting that perception, as Lethal Force was already used and according to the voice recording of the person on the video chat, and the other witnesses' recollection, Wilson was yelling at Brown to stop the whole time and to get on the ground. What initially started as a Deadly Force situation, abruptly turned again in to one, as the perception is if Brown was bold enough to continue to charge even after being shot, even after running away, and even after being ordered to the ground, grievous bodily harm was still a perception of Wilson.

The forensics and witness statements proved that Brown did not surrender, and Wilson did not fire while he was fleeing, and did not fire as he was motionless. He fired when Brown charged. Additionally, no state in the US authorizes Deadly Force for Fleeing Subjects during a felony. It was a Supreme Court ruling that overturned that decision (which escapes my mind at this moment...) a few years ago.

[Qalbert]

Additionally, no state in the US authorizes Deadly Force for Fleeing Subjects during a felony. It was a Supreme Court ruling that overturned that decision (which escapes my mind at this moment...) a few years ago.

Not that this stopped them from printing out a statute claiming otherwise and giving it to the grand jury before Wilson's testimony, and then offering a half-assed (and unexplained) 'correction' weeks later right before the decision was made.

[Nephlite]

The statute did not say that an officer is allowed to use Deadly Force specifically, and the reporter who did the segment on it was using the outdated version of the law to make an argument. It did not say anywhere specifically in the amended statute that the action is authorized, and was changed by ruling.

[notorious bum]

Glad to see the same folks defending doughboy's awful canned testimony and Bobby's non-prosecution and data-dumping strat. Good times.

I leave ya'll with this nugget of wisdom shared by a friend of mine yesterday: "If DW was in the car fighting for his life, taking two mighty wallops through the window, why didn't his pussy ass hit the gas pedal?"

To that I have no reply. There has to be some magical negro forcefield preventing him from moving, or MB pinned his leg down when he was Dhalsim'ing inside for the gun before/after DW unholstered. The world will never know, but thank god for white folk's imaginations.

[kuronosan]

I can see why he wasn't indicted (though he really should have been, even if just for the public trust).

I suppose after all this the real discrepancies are why a kid would just randomly reach into a cop car and start pounding a cop in the face.

With all these shootings I have to be honest and say it's really eroded my trust in cops, and I typically get along with them really well.

[FNH]

It is as I thought. My bosses' son is a local cop so I'll discuss it with him when I get the chance later. I meant to press the issue as an alternate means to stop the threat from being a threat without killing him or her. It makes sense that lethal force is needed sometimes, just not in this scenario. We can toss out the now "shoot to incapacitate." How do you explain the fact that Brown stopped after fleeing, then? Not the altercation in the car, but fleeing from Wilson, then allegedly stopping and turning about face to surrender? It was self defense in the car, then it became a fleeing felon scenario which is also granted the use of lethal force in that area. He had now stopped after being shot -- does the case once again become self defense? Does Wilson continue off of the Fleeing Felon scenario?

Ironically I had argued this same argument with you a few days after Ferguson went down. I'll draw it out again after my work day if it hasn't been done so yet.

Tennessee v. Garner

[FNH]

I leave ya'll with this nugget of wisdom shared by a friend of mine yesterday: "If DW was in the car fighting for his life, taking two mighty wallops through the window, why didn't his pussy ass hit the gas pedal?"

Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. - Mike Tyson

What that means is you can think about what you would do in any situation or after the fact, but it all boils down to instincts in the event. It is easy to armchair every profession while sitting on the internet all day, but in the end you have no real world experience.

[notorious bum]

That is why I forfeit armchair discussions, punditry, and blogger op-eds (which I have been able to tie some of these so-called discrepancies to shit-holes like the Blaze) and rely on professionals, instead. Thank god for the internet and the ease of connecting with said professionals.

[notorious bum]

Hey, since Black Friday protests are poppin off this year, anyone who can snap some pictures of folks outside Wally World, feel free to share the wealth. It looks like there is already a decent showing in some places, like DC.

[Mertron]

Glad to see the same folks defending doughboy's awful canned testimony and Bobby's non-prosecution and data-dumping strat. Good times.

I leave ya'll with this nugget of wisdom shared by a friend of mine yesterday: "If DW was in the car fighting for his life, taking two mighty wallops through the window, why didn't his pussy ass hit the gas pedal?"

To that I have no reply. There has to be some magical negro forcefield preventing him from moving, or MB pinned his leg down when he was Dhalsim'ing inside for the gun before/after DW unholstered. The world will never know, but thank god for white folk's imaginations.

yes, lets train our police officers to run and hide from conflict at all costs. the world will be so much better