The Ferguson, Missouri thread

[Boyiee]

EMS doesn't respond if the scene isn't secure anyway, so all of it is moot. Large crowd, agitators, protesters storming scene = EMS is staging far away or not being brought in at all. Their safety comes first. Want EMS to be there sooner? Don't crowd the scene. You can blame the police, but also blame the bystanders.

[Skyylya]

Agitators get the headlines, but the real truth was the EMS would have been able to get through when the crowd was only 10-20 in the last precious minutes before his death. Even much later, the real problem was not protestors, because you could see down the streets on the livestream, lines of cop cars that were parked in all sorts of dumbass directions; they do this a lot if you ever watch their back-up officers arrive to greet protestors. The back-up police arrived with the storm trooper-tier riot gear and batons out, it was a mess, that's when I went to sleep.

how fucking retarded are you? I swear I can't read anything you write with a straight face. You're purposefully adding words with emotion to suit your cause and entirely ignoring the facts.

[Draygon]

how fucking retarded are you? I swear I can't read anything you write with a straight face. You're purposefully adding words with emotion to suit your cause and entirely ignoring the facts.

I usually just try to avoid this thread, as I generally take Neph's side on most issues, however I seem to be alone in that regard.

[Skyylya]

I do as well. I said from the very beginning to wait until the facts were out and it seems like most people aren't interested in the facts. Some people just want a reason to yell and satisfy their own agenda.

[Kazen]

As do I, but I'm an officer as well and most people don't realize what we go through even before the Ferguson event happened; I've actually possibly met Neph at some point because he works in DC but who knows. Anyways that's just how this thread is, most people are pushing their own agenda and this thread is mostly a waste to post in.

[notorious bum]

Isn't this the 2nd or 3rd time you've entered a thread, only to bark at a particular poster you vehemently dislike/disagree with, Skyyla? As for my opinion on the EMS never being called, I have the right to make that conclusion based on:
A)witnessing the scene myself, in it's state at around 1-2hrs after the shooting, for at least 1hr elapsed.
B)pulling from a history of blatant lies by the police forces in that region, my opinion will not change unless tapes are released of the call.
C)I also have friends who have family that are paramedics that share the opinion that the refusal to help a dying man, who is no threat to them, is absolute bullshit for most situations. A crowd who is witnessing a man bleeding out is likely not going to attack the very people who may possibly save his life. If the police told them the crowd was a threat, that's on the police. They have demonstrated a terrible history of assessing emergency situations.

Musing about agendas is ironic, considering the most prevalent agenda, recently, is the cultish brotherhood of those in blue. Very few professions display such overwhelming blind-faith in those who happen to wear the same uniform, especially those who are in completely different parts of the country. If you can nail my personal agenda or allegiance, then you know me better than I do myself, as my views of the world change on a consistent basis. I've learned a lot in 2014 and this is all due to the people on the streets, the indegnous population, especially, they are far more wise and altruistic than practically every man in power on this Earth. /endrant

[Nephlite]

I usually just try to avoid this thread, as I generally take Neph's side on most issues, however I seem to be alone in that regard.

I do as well. I said from the very beginning to wait until the facts were out and it seems like most people aren't interested in the facts. Some people just want a reason to yell and satisfy their own agenda.

As do I, but I'm an officer as well and most people don't realize what we go through even before the Ferguson event happened; I've actually possibly met Neph at some point because he works in DC but who knows. Anyways that's just how this thread is, most people are pushing their own agenda and this thread is mostly a waste to post in.

Yay! I have friends! ;_;

I should just learn to keep my mouth shut. I'm an idiot though. My supervisors all say I have problems with authority and keeping my mouth shut. Even my CO in the Army said I'm going to get a court martial for insubordination someday.

Isn't this the 2nd or 3rd time you've entered a thread, only to bark at a particular poster you vehemently dislike/disagree with, Skyyla? As for my opinion on the EMS never being called, I have the right to make that conclusion based on:
A)witnessing the scene myself, in it's state at around 1-2hrs after the shooting, for at least 1hr elapsed.
B)pulling from a history of blatant lies by the police forces in that region, my opinion will not change unless tapes are released of the call.
C)I also have friends who have family that are paramedics that share the opinion that the refusal to help a dying man, who is no threat to them, is absolute bullshit for most situations. A crowd who is witnessing a man bleeding out is likely not going to attack the very people who may possibly save his life. If the police told them the crowd was a threat, that's on the police. They have demonstrated a terrible history of assessing emergency situations.

Musing about agendas is ironic, considering the most prevalent agenda, recently, is the cultish brotherhood of those in blue. Very few professions display such overwhelming blind-faith in those who happen to wear the same uniform, especially those who are in completely different parts of the country. If you can nail my personal agenda or allegiance, then you know me better than I do myself, as my views of the world change on a consistent basis. I've learned a lot in 2014 and this is all due to the people on the streets, the indegnous population, especially, they are far more wise and altruistic than practically every man in power on this Earth. /endrant

A) You witnessed the scene from a livestream. There's a difference of watching one persons perspective and actually being there.

B) Blatant lies?

C) Ask your paramedic friends what training police officers get in First Aid and what their protocol is to preform said First Aid on patients. It's exactly as I explained in another post. We're not trained EMT's and we don't carry a lot of medical equipment on our persons to do much. Protocol is to roll the subject in to the Recovery Position and monitor their airway. If they're still breathing, you wait for EMS. If they stop breathing, check their pulse and if there is none, start CPR. A chest shot is likely fatal unless immediate medical intervention can be given. Even an EMT-Paramedic will tell you that their job is to keep the patient alive until they get to the hospital. They're not preforming an emergency Tracheotomy in the back of a bus or inserting a needle in to the chest cavity to expel trapped air in the chest cavity like you see on Three Kings. There's literally nothing you can do but hope EMS gets there, and the police don't control how fast EMS arrives, the driver does.

[Nephlite]

Additionally:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...-during-riots/

The St. Louis County prosecutor’s office has filed multiple charges against a North County man believed to be involved in an incident at QuikTrip on Christmas Eve.

Joshua L. Williams, 19, is charged with 1st degree arson, 2nd degree burglary and misdemeanor theft at the convenience store.

The incident happened after Berkeley police officers shot and killed Antonio Martin, 18, in the 6800 block of North Hanley at Mobil On the Run gas station.

Martin was allegedly armed and pointed a gun at officers.

Shortly after the shooting, people began gathering at On the Run.

Three explosive devices were set off, two at On the Run and one at QT. According to court records, Williams allegedly started a fire at the QT. He is also accused of stealing a lighter, gum and an undisclosed amount of money.

[notorious bum]

I understand the police and their limitations, I am only questioning whether the EMS were called at all and how long did it take. I do appreciate the feedback.

[Nephlite]

I understand the police and their limitations, I am only questioning whether the EMS were called at all and how long did it take. I do appreciate the feedback.

I'm hoping they do what we do and request a supervisor and EMS as soon as you discharge. It's built in to our response training to 1) Shoot, 2) Move offline and reassess, 3) Radio for additional units, a supervisor, and the language is always "I have one down with a gunshot, stage EMS for Channel 3 (mutual Aid)"

[Boyiee]

C)I also have friends who have family that are paramedics that share the opinion that the refusal to help a dying man, who is no threat to them, is absolute bullshit for most situations. A crowd who is witnessing a man bleeding out is likely not going to attack the very people who may possibly save his life. If the police told them the crowd was a threat, that's on the police. They have demonstrated a terrible history of assessing emergency situations.

They may have the opinion that refusing to help someone that isn't currently a threat is bullshit, but I can tell you that they also won't go into an unsafe scene. It is beaten into their heads from day 1. If the scene isn't safe and secured, EMS doesn't go in. If the crowd is dangerous, fact or fiction, EMS stays out.

And you are extremely wrong about crowd not attacking. Crowds see someone down and freak the fuck out when people aren't helping fast enough or don't seem to be doing enough in their eyes for the person. Especially if they know the victim of are family. Mob mentalities form in an instant. There is a reason EMS around the country are wearing vests nowadays and being put through self defense and firearms training. A crowd is the most dangerous thing there is to first responders. You're always out numbered, you don't know what they have or how they'll react.

[BaneTheBrawler]

As to the quality of this thread, I am doing my best. I cannot, alas, enforce a fair and balanced discussion. I'm trying to draw new lines in this section that will hopefully keep things... if not fair and balanced, then at least civil and informative. Also, please keep in mind I've only been doing this for a little under a month. I'm still learning.

[Gadritan]

They may have the opinion that refusing to help someone that isn't currently a threat is bullshit, but I can tell you that they also won't go into an unsafe scene. It is beaten into their heads from day 1. If the scene isn't safe and secured, EMS doesn't go in. If the crowd is dangerous, fact or fiction, EMS stays out.

And you are extremely wrong about crowd not attacking. Crowds see someone down and freak the fuck out when people aren't helping fast enough or don't seem to be doing enough in their eyes for the person. Especially if they know the victim of are family. Mob mentalities form in an instant. There is a reason EMS around the country are wearing vests nowadays and being put through self defense and firearms training. A crowd is the most dangerous thing there is to first responders. You're always out numbered, you don't know what they have or how they'll react.

This. Wearing vests became mandatory for EMS here about 15 years ago because so many of them were getting shot at/shot.

[notorious bum]

As to the quality of this thread, I am doing my best. I cannot, alas, enforce a fair and balanced discussion. I'm trying to draw new lines in this section that will hopefully keep things... if not fair and balanced, then at least civil and informative. Also, please keep in mind I've only been doing this for a little under a month. I'm still learning.

I got nothing but respect, man. I think you're being as impartial as one could ask for, everyone can see the thought and energy you put into trying to keep this section in-check.

[Talint]

Musing about agendas is ironic, considering the most prevalent agenda, recently, is the cultish brotherhood of those in blue.

Pretty much this, though the effort to paint justice as "pushing an agenda" is pretty depressing.

Like, yeah. How dare you try and point out facts and patterns of behavior as a means to demand change.

[Sho]

As do I, but I'm an officer as well and most people don't realize what we go through even before the Ferguson event happened; I've actually possibly met Neph at some point because he works in DC but who knows. Anyways that's just how this thread is, most people are pushing their own agenda and this thread is mostly a waste to post in.

I'm not an officer, but I do know what you guys go through on a day-to-day basis. However, I'm also not a stranger to how impoverished life can be either. I fly as straight down the middle as possible and call every situation as I see it. Despite this, since Brown's death, most of these stories we argue on is in favor of those who have been killed due to police overreach. Saying this in no way undermines these two police officers being killed. That is also a grievous tragedy that should not have happened either.

When speaking of crowds and mob-mentality, if you've every lived in a dangerous neighborhood like I have, you'd know that mobs can become extremely dangerous to police officers, EMS as well as fire fighters. Things can go south exceptionally quickly if someone is dying and EMS can't get to the person quickly to resuscitate, or move them to the ambulance, etc. Police always catch shit after a shooting in which they've killed someone in the line-of-duty, it's nothing new. There's a huge sentiment of hate for these public officials, and it only gets worse in more impoverished neighborhoods.

The thread has honestly degraded much because of clashing agendas, I agree. It's on both sides, and those posters with extreme viewpoints (also on both sides), completely ignoring counter points. I find it more saddening that so many successive tragedies are happening since Michael Brown's death and neither side has yet to come to terms for a more peaceful resolution. This goes far beyond petty arguing over BG and the Internet at-large.

[Melena]

Some don't want a peaceful resolution sadly though and wish to use this as a means to exploit performing violence/vandalism. For example last week there was a protest whose goal was specifically to keep police occupied all night and unable to do anything. That same group smashed windows, hit a news reporter with a bottle, and vandalized a community christmas tree in jack london square. This accomplishes absolutely nothing for the cause of ending police brutality. All it does it cost businesses and tax payers money. And now you have wannabe gang bangers starting to come out thinking it's open season on cops, and i'm just now waiting on the closet racists to come out claiming open season on minorities so the circle can be complete.

[notorious bum]

Are you really waiting for them to come out, to join with the wannabe gang bangers and anarchists? I'm sure you haven't somehow missed the most vocal of the trolls and brazen ignorance out there after all these months.

[Talint]

Both Sides Derangement Syndrome.

If you're really equating "both sides" (a bullshit idea, but let's run with it anyway) as being terrible, then please tell me what's at stake for both of them. Since all given things are equal, then what both sides want must surely be as equally terrible.

[notorious bum]

No, both "sides" will never be equal; the same way "reverse racism" will never be a thing, no matter how much white people shout it. You have many groups who will continue to attempt to co-opt a movement of this scale (see: civil rights movements), then you have white supremacists, closeted or not, who are enabled by ignorance spewed on the media, politicians, and police behavior. Systemic forces of oppression will always outweigh any imaginary force of anarchists or wannabe gang-bangers trying to express their alpha male agendas.