The Ferguson, Missouri thread

[jmc]

Not that I care you guys wear vests, but you don't wear vests that stop 5.56. If I remember correctly, the biggest push to get all officers vests came from some shit in LA where dudes used AR's. Majority of AR's in the US have to be 5.56.

North Hollywood shootout in the late 90s did that.

[Churchill]

Right but your vests don't stop 5.56.

If you did wear vests that stop 5.56, aside from the crazy money it would take for them to be properly cared for and maintained, you'd be wearing plate carriers instead of vests and technically be even more militarized.

[jmc]

They are not realistic in a basic patrol routine for law enforcement, but I would say they would be ok for SWAT team members to have.

[Niiro]

North Hollywood shootout in the late 90s did that.

I'm pretty sure the big takeaway from that shootout was for officers to have access to more powerful guns when needed, not body armor.

The main issue with that whole incident was that the police couldn't penetrate the body armor the suspects were wearing with the weapons they had.

[Salodin]

Afaik, the point of vests for everyday police people isn't to stop the assault rifle from killing them, it's for the small arms fire they might come across since nearly the entire population has legal access to one. Don't know why some one would bring up the vests ineffectiveness in stopping 5.56.

[Thunder]

Afaik, the point of vests for everyday police people isn't to stop the assault rifle from killing them, it's for the small arms fire they might come across since nearly the entire population has legal access to one. Don't know why some one would bring up the vests ineffectiveness in stopping 5.56.

because someone saying "I don't want police officers to have bullet proof vests" (which is what spawned this conversation) is totally different given the context of them talking about vests that can stop 5.56 or not

I didn't know anything about this and when I read the thing about people being against vests I was like wtf is this shit, but given some context and arms background it makes a bit more sense

If those were the vests that were on the minds of the protesters in the OP, anyway.

[Xno Kappa]

Those heavy ass plates for 5.56 rounds gets old real quick, shit is impractical for regular routine use. Still, to bitch about a piece of equipment that literally does nothing to the community but protect the individual wearing it is testament to these "peaceful protesters."

[NynJa]

But thats how it affects the community, these "peaceful protesters" are upset that the cops are better protected...or some other ridiculous bullshit lol

[notorious bum]

I don't think you guys understand, despite doing your best Limbaugh impression, "peaceful protesters" isn't some derogatory phrase you can use to describe completely unrelated groups of activists. Does it really aggravate you when people "assume" they are, in regards to actual protests? Guilty until proven innocent?

[6souls]

Just an fyi, BLM in MN is primarily white. The leaders are black, but it's mostly whites that show up to the protests.

[Koul]

I don't think you guys understand, despite doing your best Limbaugh impression, "peaceful protesters" isn't some derogatory phrase you can use to describe completely unrelated groups of activists. Does it really aggravate you when people "assume" they are, in regards to actual protests? Guilty until proven innocent?

You can make anything derogatory. It's not meant to be accurate. So. Yeah, they can use it to describe groups of people- sorry "activists" I say that as a derogatory.

[Churchill]

Those heavy ass plates for 5.56 rounds gets old real quick, shit is impractical for regular routine use. Still, to bitch about a piece of equipment that literally does nothing to the community but protect the individual wearing it is testament to these "peaceful protesters."

I wouldn't say it gets old or impractical, maybe if you're a fatass but idk.

My point, and it's not a very good one because the argument is bad at its core, was the following:

If

a) The militarization of todays police forces throughout the US, to include every station having its own SWAT and officers having access to high powered weapons and non-lethal deterrents, access to body armor, etc was caused by events like

b) North Hollywood shootout (among others) and the general availability of weapons to the average american as well as influence of militarized cartels and gangs from the brown part of the Americas then

c) Why aren't police using vests that would actually stop the round that sits atop the 'dangerous:available' dataset.


In fact, I was leaning even more towards asking a question about officer safety.

My dad has this notion that police shoot to kill nowadays, which he remembers as not being the case when he was younger. Police would shoot to wound, or something to that effect. I don't know how accurate it is because I'm not 300 years old. Obviously the change in behavior is influenced by the factors mentioned before.

But, if it is so dangerous and all this money is being poured into getting fat guy his tricked out floating barrel M4 just like SOF uses, then my obvious question is why are the lethal avenues having so much money dumped into them when I would rather have adequate body armor ANY DAY OF THE WEEK because I'm not a shit marksman but I am also not Iron Man.

Granted, guns are cheaper than body armor and also cheaper to maintain. You'd be looking at having to have enough armor for every station to where each officer had 2 sets and those sets were rotated as every 6 months you sent the old set in to be checked for damage. You'd also do this any time you dropped your armor or fell a decent distance or suffered an impact of any kind (bullet or otherwise). You'd replace a set (both plates) any time a problem was found.

On top of that, proper carriers are pretty expensive too because they should also be made of ballistic stopping materials and not just cloth.

[jmc]

Using thicker and therefore heavier plates just isn't feasible in this day and age for basic patrol. There are alot of officers (who are idiots) that don't even wear a vest to begin with. Most are not going to wear a heavier vest for 8/12/16 hours straight while walking around on patrol, even if it can one day save their lives.

The risk of being shot by a rifle with a 5.56 round on a traffic stop is pretty slim (it happens, but majority of traffic stop shootings are pistol based).

So those types of ballistic vests are better left to specialized units that will have time to gear up before handling a call.

[Churchill]

Well I know the risk is slim, so is the risk of needing a 5.56 or 7.62 AR with AP ammo in order to penetrate a perps body armor. That was part of the point in this hypothetical.

Where for my money, I'd rather have a vest (a nice carrier with side plates) than an M4.

Second time it's mentioned (or more) but I also don't really think the vests are that heavy or obtrusive. The only time I personally feel they kinda suck is when you're in a vehicle.

[jmc]

Patrol will spend majority of their day in a vehicle

Just curious, how much did your vest weight? I'm hearing between 20-30 pounds from friends, where my every day duty vest is around 5-6 pounds.

[Churchill]

~3lbs for the carrier, ~8lbs each plate, ~3lbs each side plate, total without ammo is ~25lbs.

It's carried on your chest though, that weight is hardly noticeable. I think you'd notice your vests more easily just because they are probably wrap around IFV type setups that restrict your movement.

Ours carriers were more similar to this and were barely there.

Spoiler: show

[Churchill]

These types of vests are the fucking worst, you might as well just wear a mr. potatohead outfit with ceramic plates

Spoiler: show

[jmc]

Funny you mentioned wearing the weight in your chest.

I remembered our Union tried pushing for external carriers a few years ago but not for protection or stopping power. It was simply to get rid of the weight of duty belts and "traditional" vests to help save our backs.

Department shot the idea down pretty quickly sadly.

[archibaldcrane]

My buddy who worked on COPS and got got by the Omaha PD was wearing a standard vest.

Shot in the fucking armpit. The worst fucking luck ever.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-co...ootout-n190301

[6souls]

Videos existing are from the ambulance, a business, and a witness. None will be released until the investigation is over and none of them capture the whole altercation.

Witness video leaked



Claim is being made that at the :29 mark you can see Jamar lying on the ground in handcuffs, but in reality your can't see shit with that resolution.

MN Gov, Mark Dayton, has seen the ambulance video and says that there is not enough footage to support either side's claim.

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/11...k-video-dayton

White supremacists make a video where they flash a gun while driving down to the protests. They get there, talk shit, do nothing, then leave.

http://www.citypages.com/news/armed-...utdown-7847606
https://www.facebook.com/BlackLivesM...0885932288533/
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/56252362/

Guy driving identified as Rico Suarez