The Ferguson, Missouri thread

[notorious bum]

#Ferguson Police Officer Justin Cosma Hog-Tied And Injured A Young Child, Lawsuit Alleges: http://t.co/gGUGYFd0Di

[archibaldcrane]

So if you support the cop, you are racist. If you support waiting until all the evidence comes out and hoping that things aren't as bad as they to appear to be, you are spineless? So either you support Michael 100% or you are a horrible person.

Glad to know we live in such a black and white world.

Why do you assume more evidence will come out?

[notorious bum]

He means Darren Wilson's side of the story, which has had the unique opportunity to be written after all the real evidence and testimonies have been gathered.

[Meresgi]

Why do you assume more evidence will come out?

Because he doesn't grasp the background of how fucked up the police force is in this town/area. If it were some place without the history of racial discrimination then yeah, I would say "lets see ALL the evidence" but in this case we all fucking know that "ALL the evidence" is going to be whatever the authorities want us to see along with fabricating whatever the fuck they want.

[Kohan]

Of course it's a combination of the two, nothing is so clear cut as to exist in isolation. I'm saying I'm more concerned with the cops shooting unarmed people aspect than the "black people are pretty much fucked in the US" aspect.

You shouldn't be trying to separate the two, and this is something I talked about a few days back. The heated tone is due to the stupidity I was dealing with at the time, but the information is relevant regardless.

[Sho]

I'd rather think I'm not racist

Though, I do support Wilson as a fellow officer since I've been in his shoes (okay, maybe not knee deep in the shit like he is), I would still like justice for Michael Brown if the evidence points to murder. What does that make me if I'm not necessarily rooting for either team, but hope either wins at the same time?

It makes you a sane person, if indecisive. Though I support Brown, I'm not afraid to take back some of my own words if Wilson ultimately wins. However, I still (and will forever) believe excessive force was not needed. Brown could have been the shittiest person ever, and/or another race completely and I would have taken the same stance, considering the situation. I'm not saying every cop is bad -- I've seen many cops who take their job seriously and are amazing at their duties (and even give back to the community on their own dime). Overall, I believe police either need to be retrained overall, or given more courses on judging and better discerning situations that aren't life threatening. They also have to be more accommodating if they are in rough cities that's part of their jurisdiction. It's ultimately your job to protect those who are even a danger to themselves. Not everyone out there is trying to do wrong, even if they seemingly despise the police. Police always seem to have this trigger happy mentality everywhere they go, quick to judge a person as a threat as soon as they escalate the situation. There's a reason why people feel such sentiment towards the police, regardless of where it is in the US.

I think despite what had happen I have more respect for you than other other people supporting Wilson in the thread, because you actually tried to have many informative discussions, though some of them got heated. Better off than some of the blatant trolls who are just armchair warriors and know nothing of the struggle on either side of the debate.

I don't see what's so horrible about wanting to see the criminal justice system work as intended instead of just condoning the mob's bloodlust.

Honestly this whole thing seems to be less about white people shooting black people than it is about police officers shooting unarmed citizens.

This is ultimately what it's all about, more so than a racial debate. Police do overreach, and go out of there way to antagonize the people who they are supposed to be protecting. Then you have the debate from where Correction comes from which is also true. The justice system is broken as fuck and it is almost never in favor of African-Americans (and Hispanic-Americans). This also coincides with said males who are in lower class areas as well. Black males are almost always taken for a loop, usually with a speedy no-win trial forced upon them, which are then sent to prisons and jails thereafter. This then breaks up families and leads to more of the same with their children, as their fathers and father-figures before them. The entire point of transparency when it comes to police evidence is yet entirely another subject as well. In this particular incident, there should be no reason why the evidence was not released within the end of the first week leading into the second, even if this has become a media frenzy. Even now there hasn't been much if any evidence that has been released, it seems as if their department is hoping this will all blow over now that the nation is focused on ISIS.

[notorious bum]

It makes you a sane person, if indecisive. Though I support Brown, I'm not afraid to take back some of my own words if Wilson ultimately wins.

I'm unfamiliar with this concept, especially knowing that cops undoubtedly "win" the overwhelming majority of their trials, in the face of so many documented cases of injustice that happen every year.

[vagus]

Calgary sounds like an icey hell. I fucks with Canadian hip-hop, tho. Swollen Members and Moka Only dropped some fire this year.

How bout drizzy drake? Heh.

[Drex]

You shouldn't be trying to separate the two, and this is something I talked about a few days back. The heated tone is due to the stupidity I was dealing with at the time, but the information is relevant regardless.

The problem is that when you don't separate the two, you leave the media covering the event an open door to focus on the racial aspects, which not only marginalizes non-black victims of police overkill but also establishes the "us vs. them" lines in places that minimalize the support needed for a chance at real change. The racial frustrations are 100% justified but the "white kills black" details have completely overwhelmed the "cop kills unarmed man" aspect and given racists and race-baiters a soapbox that forces the conversation into a historical context, rather than focusing on the present & future. It's ruthless frame control.

[Kohan]

The problem is that when you don't separate the two, you leave the media covering the event an open door to focus on the racial aspects,

Is this actually criticizing the notion of people openly discussing racism? Because if that happens, and it doesn't often enough, it's not a bad thing—it's exactly what should be happening.

which not only marginalizes non-black victims of police overkill

I can't even believe I'm reading this comment.

It's already been established that the overwhelming majority of people killed in these instances are black, and that minorities are targeted in general. Despite this, they don't receive a proportionately fair amount of attention versus non-minorities, since people explicitly do not want to frame things in racial terms—like you.

You are honestly saying that discussing institutionalized racism and its direct consequences is problematic, because that takes attention away from the comparatively statistically insignificant and more commonly scrutinized injustices suffered by non-minorities?

You genuinely do not realize that this standpoint is racist?

but also establishes the "us vs. them" lines in places that minimalize the support needed for a chance at real change. The racial frustrations are 100% justified but the "white kills black" details have completely overwhelmed the "cop kills unarmed man" aspect and given racists and race-baiters a soapbox that forces the conversation into a historical context, rather than focusing on the present & future. It's ruthless frame control.

If the "white kills black" details do in fact overwhelm everything else—good. That is exactly the kind of conversation people shy away from, and the one we need to be having. This is where the "real change" needs to happen. What you are arguing for is publicized and challenged far more commonly already, as has been overwhelmingly statistically demonstrated. That's not changing things—whitewashing maintains the status quo.

I don't know what you tried to produce with your would-be counterargument, but it's weak. I imagine the reason you're sounding so wishy-washy ("I don't like racism, but I don't like talking about it so much") is because you're trying to argue from a standpoint that can't be firmly excused nor confidently supported, especially if you are an individual who does not want to condone racism.

You claim focusing on race is only useful for bigots, which is completely befuddling nonsense. You somehow think that the past needs to be ignored in order to focus on the future, and I don't even know what the fuck to say to that, besides its being one of the exact reason racism propagates ("racism is over").

You can't actually adequately explain why this is a "problem," and you didn't. Try again if you want, but I'm already ashamed of what I've read.

[Kuya]

How hard is it to understand that if the facts show black men are disproportionately the victims of police aggression then the whole issue was already about race? Why keep saying "don't bring race into this"? That's precisely why black people are so frustrated with whites.

[Roranora]

This is why mixed babies are key.

[SephYuyX]

The whole black male thing about being arrested the most - Has it been factored in that most crime happens in poor urban areas where the population is mainly black males?
The findings are skewed to begin with.

[kuronosan]

The whole black male thing about being arrested the most - Has it been factored in that most crime happens in poor urban areas where the population is mainly black males?
The findings are skewed to begin with.

I'll give you a bit to think about what you said before you get rebutted back to WASPYtown.

[GoggleHead]

You shouldn't be trying to separate the two, and this is something I talked about a few days back. The heated tone is due to the stupidity I was dealing with at the time, but the information is relevant regardless.

Maybe I'm dead wrong but I feel like there's three distinct discussions that need to happen and you're telling me it's not ok to have all three of them.

1. Black people getting fucked in general
2. Black people getting fucked by the police
3. People getting fucked by the police in general

In my mind all three are completely valid and important discussions we ought to be having as a result of this clusterfuck, but we're only going to be able to have the first two so the police problem will get chalked up to racism and subsequently ignored until the next time they shoot a black kid.
There's a problem here than cannot be 100% attributed to racism and if we don't discuss it both in the context of racism as well as without, then we're not going to make as much progress on addressing the issue.

[SephYuyX]

I actually had to Google that term. I'm not protestant

Granted I can count on one hand how many different black people I went to school all the way from grade school through college lol.

My one black friend I've known since hs I swear is more white than I am; even married a white girl (acts more black than him).

Unfortuantly the population here is still pretty racist, at least to the extent of not walking through certain areas, hold purse close when someone walks by, etc, and most crimes are linked back to black males (at least thats what it seems like given whenever there is a crime, the media stats as such, can't say I know the stats)

[Nephlite]

It makes you a sane person, if indecisive. Though I support Brown, I'm not afraid to take back some of my own words if Wilson ultimately wins. However, I still (and will forever) believe excessive force was not needed. Brown could have been the shittiest person ever, and/or another race completely and I would have taken the same stance, considering the situation. I'm not saying every cop is bad -- I've seen many cops who take their job seriously and are amazing at their duties (and even give back to the community on their own dime). Overall, I believe police either need to be retrained overall, or given more courses on judging and better discerning situations that aren't life threatening. They also have to be more accommodating if they are in rough cities that's part of their jurisdiction. It's ultimately your job to protect those who are even a danger to themselves. Not everyone out there is trying to do wrong, even if they seemingly despise the police. Police always seem to have this trigger happy mentality everywhere they go, quick to judge a person as a threat as soon as they escalate the situation. There's a reason why people feel such sentiment towards the police, regardless of where it is in the US.

I think despite what had happen I have more respect for you than other other people supporting Wilson in the thread, because you actually tried to have many informative discussions, though some of them got heated. Better off than some of the blatant trolls who are just armchair warriors and know nothing of the struggle on either side of the debate.



This is ultimately what it's all about, more so than a racial debate. Police do overreach, and go out of there way to antagonize the people who they are supposed to be protecting. Then you have the debate from where Correction comes from which is also true. The justice system is broken as fuck and it is almost never in favor of African-Americans (and Hispanic-Americans). This also coincides with said males who are in lower class areas as well. Black males are almost always taken for a loop, usually with a speedy no-win trial forced upon them, which are then sent to prisons and jails thereafter. This then breaks up families and leads to more of the same with their children, as their fathers and father-figures before them. The entire point of transparency when it comes to police evidence is yet entirely another subject as well. In this particular incident, there should be no reason why the evidence was not released within the end of the first week leading into the second, even if this has become a media frenzy. Even now there hasn't been much if any evidence that has been released, it seems as if their department is hoping this will all blow over now that the nation is focused on ISIS.

I respect the shit out of you, simply because you haven't turned zealot status and have actual, meaningful input to this discussion.

I've remained pretty neutral on this whole topic the whole time (with the exception with calling Kohan out on her ignorant ass views, which I should apologize for since she's entitled to her views like anyone and I kinda blew up at her... But I won't) and I was surprised by the hate and one-sided arguments. I definitely retract my earlier statement that BG is more open minded than the rest of the interwebs.


Ultimately, I agree that Police don't have as much training as they should. You get somewhere along the lines of 1000 hours of training then they stick you on the street for another 3-6 months with a trainer, then you're out there on your own. Every situation, every call, every contact is different. They say the best way to train a police officer is through experience.

This, in turn, is the ultimate problem. Like a small child brought up from a baby, police officers are raised to meet the environment they grow up in. A corrupt police officer doesn't happen overnight. It takes months, even years of exposure to breed corruption in to the mind. This goes back to upbringing, moral character, background of involvements in that officers past, etc. The process nowadays tries to weed those out who have those character flaws, but it's not a perfect system. The system isn't perfect, because human behavior isn't perfect and predicting that behavior is equally flawed.

Same thing for police officers who tend to be more aggressive. Using the stats for the NYPD as an example, their whole model of policing is based upon a progressive, proactive approach to policing. Gone are the days of Community Oriented Policing and reactive patrolling. This has everything to do with how violent America is. Everyone from other countries likes to nitpick stats from agencies outside the U.S. (like how German Police fired 8 rounds in an entire year compared to the hundreds from American Police Officers). Sad news ladies and gentlemen: America is fucking violent as hell. Especially in urban environments.

And what happens to the police? They get more violent and aggressive to adapt to their environment, which could explain why the "Militarization" of police has become such a hot topic, but no one will shine a light on the real problem because it highlights the poor and fundamental problems with our whole damn nation and the government.

It's already been established that the overwhelming majority of people killed in these instances are black, and that minorities are targeted in general. Despite this, they don't receive a proportionately fair amount of attention versus non-minorities, since people explicitly do not want to frame things in racial terms—like you.

The Department of Justice would like to disagree with you:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

[chazzyphizzle]

so you're saying the NYPD is actually using precogs

[Sho]

I respect the shit out of you, simply because you haven't turned zealot status and have actual, meaningful input to this discussion.

I've remained pretty neutral on this whole topic the whole time (with the exception with calling Kohan out on her ignorant ass views, which I should apologize for since she's entitled to her views like anyone and I kinda blew up at her... But I won't) and I was surprised by the hate and one-sided arguments. I definitely retract my earlier statement that BG is more open minded than the rest of the interwebs.


Ultimately, I agree that Police don't have as much training as they should. You get somewhere along the lines of 1000 hours of training then they stick you on the street for another 3-6 months with a trainer, then you're out there on your own. Every situation, every call, every contact is different. They say the best way to train a police officer is through experience.

This, in turn, is the ultimate problem. Like a small child brought up from a baby, police officers are raised to meet the environment they grow up in. A corrupt police officer doesn't happen overnight. It takes months, even years of exposure to breed corruption in to the mind. This goes back to upbringing, moral character, background of involvements in that officers past, etc. The process nowadays tries to weed those out who have those character flaws, but it's not a perfect system. The system isn't perfect, because human behavior isn't perfect and predicting that behavior is equally flawed.

Same thing for police officers who tend to be more aggressive. Using the stats for the NYPD as an example, their whole model of policing is based upon a progressive, proactive approach to policing. Gone are the days of Community Oriented Policing and reactive patrolling. This has everything to do with how violent America is. Everyone from other countries likes to nitpick stats from agencies outside the U.S. (like how German Police fired 8 rounds in an entire year compared to the hundreds from American Police Officers). Sad news ladies and gentlemen: America is fucking violent as hell. Especially in urban environments.

And what happens to the police? They get more violent and aggressive to adapt to their environment, which could explain why the "Militarization" of police has become such a hot topic, but no one will shine a light on the real problem because it highlights the poor and fundamental problems with our whole damn nation and the government.



The Department of Justice would like to disagree with you:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

In a perfect world, we should all be able to respectfully disagree whilst seeing various viewpoints, no matter how controversial. Fortunately and/or unfortunately, over the last 15+ years I've had the unique on-going experience of being black (Nigerian-American), identifying with African and African-American communities (important to separate), having had lived in or living in various social strata from the worst of the ghettos of 3rd Ward of Houston, to the lower-middle and middle class areas around Stone Mountain & greater Dekalb County of Georgia (Zone 6, still near high crime areas), to upper middle and upper class areas of South Pasadena/Altadena California. There-in I've mixed with various social circles as well. Seen it all, been through it all both good and bad.

I've probably been in almost every single bad situation anyone here can think of. Example, in Georgia when I was younger, I was a friend to many people who were Crips or initiates to said gang (though I never took part in any activities, I was known as one of the smart kids in school who people respected) -- I've been quite a few drive-bys because of this, though not being a target of said aggression, have been in many other very dangerous situations (murders, drug busts, robberies) that would make my moms hair stand on end because I wanted to identify with what my friends identified with. Culmination of this was having the very graphic image of watching my good friend die in my arms after being murdered in cold blood burned into my mind (He was killed for not bringing his return on the cocaine he dealt). Living in 3rd Ward was far worse if it is to be believed (though I know Charismatic here understands more than most). The point of saying this is, there are indeed vary dangerous and violent areas in America of which consist of various races, not limited to African-American or Hispanic (though these two are prevalent). Quite frankly the reason why there isn't much of a spotlight on these areas is simply the fact that the media is scared to go into these areas. Some places in 3rd Ward not even the police will go for fear of safety, it's just the true facts on the matter. For this, police definitely need to make more of a presence in these areas to quell or even squash the problems.

There is absolutely nothing glamorous about this lifestyle at all either, no matter how popularized wanna-be thugs and gangbangers want to make it. However a lot of these problems arise because it's an endless cycle of troubles and disenfranchisement that I've earlier talked about alongside Correction. This is not solely a problem with the police and the justice system but also of the education system, people playing politics as usual (gentrification), and of course the glamorization of said lifestyle through music and culture (something that I've been saying for years is a very powerful source). Some people honestly believe there is truly no way out from their situation and they turn to the closest people who they identify with, who then [sometimes] turn to crime to make the ends meet. I truly feel for both sides because I'm human, I want to see the best and happiness in all situations; my black brothers and sisters deserve to be happy. People who serve in the police force (and military) also deserve to be happy. However in reality there are various problems that we all need to overcome. People need to be educated constantly on these problems starting in school instead of a once or twice a year event that takes place currently, as it is a deeply rooted problem on both sides. The police need to reach out more and learn to be more understanding of these kids and what they have to live in day by day. Not everyone can be saved unfortunately, but the more dialogue that happens between youth and the police, the more conversations that start that change lives and have lasting effects on said youth.

I think taking a proactive approach to policing is a bad thing because it leads to far less "good" judgements in tense situations, that would otherwise diffuse said situation. At the same time I'm not so ignorant to believe that all people and belligerents would react in the same manner. People can be very violent, hence the reason why police act in the manner that they do. The entire thing has to begin with conversations happening. Such as in Ferguson, though it is very unfortunate that it had to come to a murder of someone for the national conversation to get going again. People need to realize or become more aware that they live in violent communities. They also need to stop protecting these types and having a "see nothing say nothing" ("I didn't see shit, I don't know shit") policy. Police need to realize that they are prone to overreach and overt aggression and learn to judge situations with more clarity. Both sides need to see it from the other's perspective(s).

As for Kohan, you should give her far more credit than you have been, she's quite possibly the most eloquent person you'll find on these forums. Her views are also not too far off from mine, though she is far more direct and final than I am.

[Qalbert]

The Department of Justice would like to disagree with you:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

but how many of the white people were unarmed