The Ferguson, Missouri thread

[Nephlite]

In a perfect world, we should all be able to respectfully disagree whilst seeing various viewpoints, no matter how controversial. Fortunately and/or unfortunately, over the last 15+ years I've had the unique on-going experience of being black (Nigerian-American), identifying with African and African-American communities (important to separate), having had lived in or living in various social strata from the worst of the ghettos of 3rd Ward of Houston, to the lower-middle and middle class areas around Stone Mountain & greater Dekalb County of Georgia (Zone 6, still near high crime areas), to upper middle and upper class areas of South Pasadena/Altadena California. There-in I've mixed with various social circles as well. Seen it all, been through it all both good and bad.

I've probably been in almost every single bad situation anyone here can think of. Example, in Georgia when I was younger, I was a friend to many people who were Crips or initiates to said gang (though I never took part in any activities, I was known as one of the smart kids in school who people respected) -- I've been quite a few drive-bys because of this, though not being a target of said aggression, have been in many other very dangerous situations (murders, drug busts, robberies) that would make my moms hair stand on end because I wanted to identify with what my friends identified with. Culmination of this was having the very graphic image of watching my good friend die in my arms after being murdered in cold blood burned into my mind (He was killed for not bringing his return on the cocaine he dealt). Living in 3rd Ward was far worse if it is to be believed (though I know Charismatic here understands more than most). The point of saying this is, there are indeed vary dangerous and violent areas in America of which consist of various races, not limited to African-American or Hispanic (though these two are prevalent). Quite frankly the reason why there isn't much of a spotlight on these areas is simply the fact that the media is scared to go into these areas. Some places in 3rd Ward not even the police will go for fear of safety, it's just the true facts on the matter. For this, police definitely need to make more of a presence in these areas to quell or even squash the problems.

There is absolutely nothing glamorous about this lifestyle at all either, no matter how popularized wanna-be thugs and gangbangers want to make it. However a lot of these problems arise because it's an endless cycle of troubles and disenfranchisement that I've earlier talked about alongside Correction. This is not solely a problem with the police and the justice system but also of the education system, people playing politics as usual (gentrification), and of course the glamorization of said lifestyle through music and culture (something that I've been saying for years is a very powerful source). Some people honestly believe there is truly no way out from their situation and they turn to the closest people who they identify with, who then [sometimes] turn to crime to make the ends meet. I truly feel for both sides because I'm human, I want to see the best and happiness in all situations; my black brothers and sisters deserve to be happy. People who serve in the police force (and military) also deserve to be happy. However in reality there are various problems that we all need to overcome. People need to be educated constantly on these problems starting in school instead of a once or twice a year event that takes place currently, as it is a deeply rooted problem on both sides. The police need to reach out more and learn to be more understanding of these kids and what they have to live in day by day. Not everyone can be saved unfortunately, but the more dialogue that happens between youth and the police, the more conversations that start that change lives and have lasting effects on said youth.

I think taking a proactive approach to policing is a bad thing because it leads to far less "good" judgements in tense situations, that would otherwise diffuse said situation. At the same time I'm not so ignorant to believe that all people and belligerents would react in the same manner. People can be very violent, hence the reason why police act in the manner that they do. The entire thing has to begin with conversations happening. Such as in Ferguson, though it is very unfortunate that it had to come to a murder of someone for the national conversation to get going again. People need to realize or become more aware that they live in violent communities. They also need to stop protecting these types and having a "see nothing say nothing" ("I didn't see shit, I don't know shit") policy. Police need to realize that they are prone to overreach and overt aggression and learn to judge situations with more clarity. Both sides need to see it from the other's perspective(s).

As for Kohan, you should give her far more credit than you have been, she's quite possibly the most eloquent person you'll find on these forums. Her views are also not too far off from mine, though she is far more direct and final than I am.

Very well said.

I won't go too much in to background for me, but I was orphaned very young and grew up on the taxpayers dime in a pretty crappy area outside D.C. We had a pretty large group of kids at the home, probably 20-30 of us. Our guardians tried hard to isolate us from contacts with the other kids in the neighborhood, particularly because of all the violence. Some of us never made it to relocation in foster or were "problem children" that couldn't be adopted for whatever reason. Most of those problems stemmed from interactions with the neighborhood kids, who dealt with problems that we never knew of. Sure, we didn't have the best stuff in terms of clothing or amenities, but we never went without food or a comfortable bed to sleep in.

Some of the kids in our neighborhood didn't have utilities like running water. We knew nothing of their struggle. It was a pretty well-mixed neighborhood racially speaking, but it was very, very poor with very poor section 8 housing. A lot of gangs live in that area and their violence was a byproduct of how poor the area was. I didn't understand back then why I couldn't go in to the neighborhood to play with the other kids, and it felt like it was a prison.

Then, I snuck out with a few of my friends and we went to the local playground where there were a bunch of kids from the neighborhood. We played like normal kids; laughing and joking and just having a good time. A fight broke out, and we started to do like kids do and circle up and watch the shenanigans. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, 4 police cruisers pulled up and a dozen officers swooped on us. Most of us scattered and unfortunately, they (the police) caught me and another boy. I was patted down, had all my stuff taken out of my pockets and thrown on the ground and handcuffed. I was on the ground for 30 minutes before anyone even bothered to say anything to me. They just stood over me and laughed and joked and cursed at us for being stupid.

Then, they threw me and the other boy in to the back of a cruiser and hauled us off to Juvi. One black officer and one white officer were in the front. The whole time they laid in to us with every threat, every menacing insult, and every curse word in the book. It wasn't the first time I heard the word "nigger" or "cracker", but it was the first time the words were directed towards me. One of them said "You know why you were singled out? Because you stick out. You're the only white boy in the group." It didn't strike me until later that he was right, but I never thought about that before. I was one of three white kids at the orphanage, and my two buddies were black and Hispanic. The rest of the kids at the playground just happened to be black.

After a while, they stopped driving and they took us out. They unhooked me and the other boy and directed us towards a parking lot of a funeral home. There, they led us to the back where there was a procession lining up. One of them grabbed a flier and handed it to us. It was a picture of a little boy, barely even 10 years old. "He got killed out here on these streets. Doing the same dumb shit you guys were doing." was the response one of the officers gave us. "Is that what you guys want? Going out here like knuckleheads and getting in to fights?" I had a smart ass mouth back then, so naturally I contested that we didn't do anything and they were just picking on us. They scolded us a while more, calling us liars and telling us that they were going to lock us up forever. Eventually, they ended up giving us a ride (surprise surprise I ended up getting a truancy mark on my juvenile record from the encounter due to being a ward of the state).

It was years before I thought about that incident again. I kept getting in to trouble as a kid and doing dumb shit until High School. That's when I started turning it around after I noticed my situation wasn't going to get better until I did something about it. I worked hard, stopped getting in to trouble, made amends with enemies that almost killed me a few times for fights, and overall tried to turn my life around. I had no real ambitions of going to college, so I didn't know what to do after High School except work some crappy job. One thing was for sure though: I was getting out of that area.

Then 9/11 happened, I enlisted, went to college on the G.I. Bill, then decided to give back to the community and became a police officer. All that's a whirlwind. I understand where you're coming from completely. Though I may not be able to share your experience in terms of racial struggle, I definitely know about the poverty struggle. I learned at a young age that the world is a pretty fucked up place and wanted to make a difference. I get pretty passionate about the Police bashing, mostly because I joined to make a difference. Some people don't and some officers don't care. That's their problem. It doesn't affect me or what I do, so I continue to do right by people. Especially if I can sympathize with their plight. I try to be objective and open minded when it comes to things because I like to examine both sides of the spectrum. We're all human, after all.

As for Kohan, you should give her far more credit than you have been, she's quite possibly the most eloquent person you'll find on these forums. Her views are also not too far off from mine, though she is far more direct and final than I am.

Yeah, you're probably right. I apologize for being a dick, Kohan.

[Sepukku]

Will you give back to your community by giving out a ton of speeding tickets this weekend for the holiday??

[Correction]

The Department of Justice would like to disagree with you:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

Sixteen states did not fully cooperate with the collection of information including, notably, Nevada. This jives with what D. Brian Burghart wrote in his Gawker column: the bookkeeping is suspect. From Reno:

Journalists say it’s a common practice among government offices to delay production of documents far beyond any practical deadlines in order to avoid scrutiny. The attention-deficient news media simply moves on to the next hot story.

To add insult to injury, the records produced by the district attorney’s office were improperly redacted (info withheld), with specific information about the individuals killed by police removed, including age, race, sex, with only the vaguest support as to why information was withheld. None of the records contained the crucial information as to whether the homicides were considered “justified.”

On Feb. 7, the district attorney reports were sent by email. Peculiarly, there were files referencing only 14 of the 18 fatal shootings by local law enforcement since 2006, when the OIS shooting “protocol” began. This is because, according to the protocol, bit.ly/1ee5bQC, which is shared among the local agencies, not all officer-involved shootings are investigated. Apparently, no records at all were kept before that.

And remember the split is between high denisty population and low density populations. Top two are blacks and mentally ill people, respectively. Two generally marginalized and ill-served segments of society getting killed by cops.

[kuronosan]

ITT, long paragraphs with agreement mean "open-minded".

I don't agree with half the shit Kohan says and I certainly despise her delivery at times, but she is still clearly intelligent (albeit emotional and sometimes very tunneled in her analysis).

I think your problem is you're too close to the situation to offer anything but an emotional response. You're torn between duty and logic.

Who wants to believe the people who die next to them or who go through so much of the same crap could possibly be so unhinged or corrupt?

I think something you're failing to realize about society (and by extension, here) is that we carry our own views and ideas as we go about our day... There are simply quirks that people don't share for one reason or the other.

Those cops in Ferguson likely share racist ideals or a universal belief that black people are criminal.

People such as yourself are the ones who must challenge that. When people like myself do, Ferguson happens.

[Talint]

From my news feed. New York Times on the left. Rolling Stone on the right.



Different situations. Right.

[kuronosan]

Racism doesn't exist yo

[Waraji]

Did the copious amount of weed show up as a primary cause of his terrorist activities? Oh wait, Tsarnaev is white, nvm wouldn't apply.

[Kuya]

Well, white by technicality

[archibaldcrane]

Couldn't be more caucasian if he tried.

[Kuya]

Sure, objectively yea but since when did race perception have anything to do with objectivity in one drop rule America?

[Khajit]

Didn't the full video show Micheal Brown PAID for the cigars? why is the New York times defaming his name with a known falsehood?
Er nvm. they're "getting around it" via saying the police said that so they can imply without actually lying.
Ah the wonderful integrity of modern journalism.

[NynJa]

Who did darren wilson sleep with to get such a false article written?!

[Nephlite]

ITT, long paragraphs with agreement mean "open-minded".

I don't agree with half the shit Kohan says and I certainly despise her delivery at times, but she is still clearly intelligent (albeit emotional and sometimes very tunneled in her analysis).

I think your problem is you're too close to the situation to offer anything but an emotional response. You're torn between duty and logic.

Who wants to believe the people who die next to them or who go through so much of the same crap could possibly be so unhinged or corrupt?

I think something you're failing to realize about society (and by extension, here) is that we carry our own views and ideas as we go about our day... There are simply quirks that people don't share for one reason or the other.

Those cops in Ferguson likely share racist ideals or a universal belief that black people are criminal.

People such as yourself are the ones who must challenge that. When people like myself do, Ferguson happens.

This is what gets me. Why do you think the cops in Ferguson are all racist? Why do you think Darren Wilson is? Did anyone get a picture with him wearing his hood and burning a cross?

Additionally, what you might consider corrupt or excessive might not mean the same thing to me. Corruption to me in the police world is taking bribes, stealing, doing drugs, trafficking stolen goods, or influencing political figures.

Lying isn't on there because the police can lie to you. If a cop lies on an investigation or during trial, that's an integrity flaw that -may- be a sign of corruption, but until it's proven he's a liar, he's telling the truth. Accusing someone of being a liar is a pretty serious allegation, especially if it's a public official. If you don't have a shred of proof to back that claim, you're just as bad.

Excessive force to you might not be excessive force to me. Does that make me racist or corrupt? I see a fellow police officer Taze you. Seems like for no reason from a bystander standpoint, but who am I to question what's happening when we're in the heat of the moment? You could have just stuck a knife in his face. Take this video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-vMjxb3C-AM

It looks terrible from a bystander point of view (the commentary says so) and it looks excessive. Little do people know the guy was being stopped for an assault warrant and he was arguing with the cop because he's part of the sovergn citizen movement.

From an outsider who doesn't understand, it's easy to make claims and assumptions about things you don't know. Humans fear the unknown and destroy things they do not understand. It's in our nature to be this way, especially when it comes to authority and people who try to control others.

[Brill Weave]

All you honkies stick together.

[Correction]

If a cop lies on an investigation or during trial, that's an integrity flaw that -may- be a sign of corruption, but until it's proven he's a liar, he's telling the truth.

Yeah about that...

Peter Keane, a former San Francisco Police commissioner, wrote an article in The San Francisco Chronicle decrying a police culture that treats lying as the norm: “Police officer perjury in court to justify illegal dope searches is commonplace. One of the dirty little not-so-secret secrets of the criminal justice system is undercover narcotics officers intentionally lying under oath. It is a perversion of the American justice system that strikes directly at the rule of law. Yet it is the routine way of doing business in courtrooms everywhere in America.”

That year, Justice Gustin L. Reichbach of the State Supreme Court in Brooklyn condemned a widespread culture of lying and corruption in the department’s drug enforcement units. “I thought I was not naïve,” he said when announcing a guilty verdict involving a police detective who had planted crack cocaine on a pair of suspects. “But even this court was shocked, not only by the seeming pervasive scope of misconduct but even more distressingly by the seeming casualness by which such conduct is employed.”

Remarkably, New York City officers have been found to engage in patterns of deceit in cases involving charges as minor as trespass. In September it was reported that the Bronx district attorney’s office was so alarmed by police lying that it decided to stop prosecuting people who were stopped and arrested for trespassing at public housing projects, unless prosecutors first interviewed the arresting officer to ensure the arrest was actually warranted. Jeannette Rucker, the chief of arraignments for the Bronx district attorney, explained in a letter that it had become apparent that the police were arresting people even when there was convincing evidence that they were innocent. To justify the arrests, Ms. Rucker claimed, police officers provided false written statements, and in depositions, the arresting officers gave false testimony.

There is no disincentive to lying as a cop, as it is rarely caught. Meanwhile if you lie to raise your arrest/incarceration rates, you get sweet sweet federal scrilla as part of the war on drugs. And when cops do get busted for lying, the worst that happens to you on average is a demotion to desk work.

Yes, it's true that the cops get the benefit of the doubt in front of a jury. If the entirety of a case falls between your word and a cops word, the cop is 'telling the truth.' They don't deserve that credit, and haven't for years and years.

[Kohan]

Yeah, you're probably right. I apologize for being a dick, Kohan.

I apologize for being a smart ass as well. I did not want to devalue your experiences. Though I did not serve, there are a lot of people in my family on all four sides—divorces, remarrying and all that—and I have friends whom I snuck things through the USPS to while they were deployed. I think I've told one of my favorite stories on BG before, which involved very carefully wrapping up a 24 pack of Vanilla Coke in old shirts and couch pillows to ship them to someone. (He sold some of the cans at $20 a pop to some other guys, and said he loved the pillows and shirts because they smelled like home.)

The violence that grips the Middle East right now is very real, and very terrible, and very brutal—and those descriptors don't do it justice. The friend I referred to in the prior paragraph only came home because he was driving, hit an IED, and—if I remember correctly—he was the only one who survived—and he was a medic. Always wanting to help people, he once advised me to snap a pencil to splint my toe when I fucked it up. He always cared greatly and wanted more than anything to help people. Still does of course, but I can't imagine the guilt he deals with every day, having gone through that.

What I took issue with, and what I don't mean to harp on now by bringing it up again, is the implication that fear and overreaction makes people stupid. Like you, I greatly despise conspiracy theorists and extremism in general. I only meant to state that everything is accumulative, and that it's all right for people to be fearful, even if they need to be brought down from the extremes of those fears.

I don't agree with half the shit Kohan says and I certainly despise her delivery at times, but she is still clearly intelligent (albeit emotional and sometimes very tunneled in her analysis).

Shut up bitch, we friends now.

[6souls]

Interview with one of St Louis' black female officers, discusses racism within the police force and how the community is generally treated

The BBC's Aleem Maqbool spoke with a black female police officer who works in the St Louis area.

She discussed her take on the controversy in Ferguson and the realities of race on the force. Out of consideration for her job, she asked not to be identified.

Before you joined the police force, what experiences did you have with the police in this area?

Experiences that made me feel disrespected, less of a human being. I have been stopped in my car and accused of doing some things I don't think I'd done.

The tone was different. In some senses, it is almost as if the officers I had the interactions with could not care less about who I was, that I was beneath him so he didn't have to extend a level of respect. I felt personally attacked.

I wanted to join the police to make a difference. I thought I could explain things from a citizen's perspective, and explain things to the community from the law enforcement perspective.

Now do you feel like an outsider among your colleagues in the police force?

I do, very much so. I don't relate with a lot of them, I haven't lived similar lives to them.

It may be a combination of being African American and a woman, but there are certain events I am not included in, or even informed of.

Maybe in their growing up they didn't have a lot of interactions with African-American females from the inner city - they're uncomfortable with it, but instead of trying to address it, they avoid it, even fear it.

So when black people in Ferguson say the issue is not just about Michael Brown, but the way they have been treated as a community, do you agree?

I can completely agree with that. It [the killing of Michael Brown] should be a learning experience.

Quite possibly the officer was in fear, as was the young man. It is sad no one is addressing that. Why was he [the police officer] so afraid of him that he had to use such intense force, and why was [Michael Brown] in such fear that it happened [that] way?

I don't know who is to blame for these perceptions, but it's almost like a fear-based society. You're told this certain type of people behaves in a certain type of way, and it sticks with you throughout your life. They never take the time to find out if it's true.

Do you think that is governing how some officers behave when they take to the streets?

I certainly do. And because nothing is being done to force those interactions, it's just grows. It's why communities are divided.

Do you think it makes it easier for some of your co-workers to shoot dead a black man?

I don't feel they would have that same connection or compassion with that individual, so it may make it easier for them.

Do you think what's happened in Ferguson over the last couple of weeks might make some of your white colleagues listen more to the kind of things you and other African-American officers have been saying about their negative dealings with black people?

No, absolutely not. It's actually created that divide and made it larger. It's made it harder for me to want to talk to them about it any more.

They are so disconnected from it. Their rationale, perception and interpretation of the issues are so far-fetched.

The comments they make are very one-sided and show such a lack of compassion and understanding, or even the desire to understand. It's heart-wrenching. It's been very difficult.

What do you mean about your white colleagues perception of what has happened in Ferguson as being "far-fetched"?

[In Ferguson] I see a hurt group of individuals, and they see a bunch of unruly ignorant people.

They are treating it as if this community is full of an angry mob that wants to just tear up everything and they should be satisfied with what they had.

But the point is you shouldn't make such an assumption that they should be happy with what they had. They shouldn't. You wouldn't be.

I know Ferguson is not a group of ignorant uneducated people that are unruly. They are just a bunch of frustrated people who have tried and tried, but have been met with negative results.

You have a few apartment complexes in Ferguson, but there's a lot of neighbourhoods, well kept lawns. Where people work together as a community - they have jobs, work hard every day. They are probably exhausted, they're just trying to build [a] better life for families.

What do you think will make your colleagues realize they need to work harder in their relations with the community?

It's really hard to say. They're not the minority, they're not the ones that need to be forced to understand it. So, as the minority, you've just got to handle it, you deal with it and you move along and accept it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28890068

[kuronosan]

Alphas gonna alpha.

[Kuya]

That interview pretty much hit the heart of the issue. Preconceived notions about black people informing the behavior of white people. Same is true for black people and their behavior towards the police.

[Xno Kappa]

Yeah about that...

Maybe for cops on petty shit, but if a federal agent gets caught lying on the stand your career is pretty much over. Your name will spread like wildfire, no DA/ADA/SJA/SAUSA/AUSA/GJ will ever take any case you've touched.