Salvage Bans v 2.0

[NynJa]

This isn't a competitive game.

Yeah, it is. Otherwise shouters would just take whoever responded first for a party spot.

[hey]

If you work 3 different near full-time jobs and work hard and I work 1 job and work hard, it would be silly to be mad at the guy who's working 3 jobs when they come home with the same car that we both wanted before me.

If however, that guy worked no jobs, used a backdoor method to hack a ton of money in one afternoon and then had the police throw them in a jail that's basically a retreat for 3 days and then let them go and let them keep the new car you both wanted while you're still working your ass off at your 1 job, I bet you you wouldn't be very happy about it. In fact, I'm pretty sure you'd say screw it and just join your neighbor. You could still work hard and say it was the journey that mattered, but I'm pretty sure you'll always know in the back of your head that you're a sucker. And when you get that car finally, will you really enjoy it as much? For most people, that's going to be no.

It's not like farming 2 hours a day for literally years doing the same thing is exactly exhilarating.

So join them? Seriously, if the only argument is "it makes legitimate players jealous", then why aren't you cheating?

[NynJa]

So join them? Seriously, if the only argument is "it makes legitimate players jealous", then why aren't you cheating?

Because we dont want to get our shit b&?

[Cow_k]

Because you're taking the the whole feeling of accomplishment out of the game for most people and again, that's why most people still play ffxi. On top of that, if everyone cheats their way through all content, what game will be left? People are really going to want to do delve for no reason more than a few times? The whole point of the game is to cooperate with other people to achieve end goals. If this were a purely single player game, I'd agree with you, but people play MMOs for the loots and the feeling it comes from being at the top. Sure there are other reasons, but 90% of the playerbase keeps playing for the reason I just stated. You're fooling yourself otherwise.

And again, there are ways to play this game without being on an official server if you want this to be a single player game. Why screw with the people who want to play a legitimate experience when all you care about is yourself and playing the game like a single player experience?

[Fwahm]

1) I DID hand out a shit ton of gil for almost nothing in return. Getting something crafted? Eh, i'm just going to toss that nq you made, but i give you 500k for trying anyway. Not sure how much this food/medicine costs, i'll just bid 100k instead of checking. I paid for 3 full relics for other people. All in all, i probably gave away around 400 million gil. Mostly to friends, but also to crafters, and other people who helped me in even a tiny way. Because guess what? I wasn't competing with anyone. I was happy to see others get nice things.
2) who cares?
3) Okay, then go get a claustrum.
4) You're right, that hasn't happened.

1: I didn't say a shitton. I said NEARLY ALL of it, like >99%, since this is a "cooperative" game. FFXI is definitely a competitive game, or else things like epeen, afterglow, gear that enhances your abilities by 0.1% but is valued because it's rare, etc. But then again, this leads into number 2.
2: A lot of people care. You'd be surprised what someone with strong morals cares about. I know a friend of mine who actually quit (though probably only temporarily) because the mythic they finished recently was mostly from cheap salvage exploit Alex. I wouldn't go that far myself, but it still gives me a bad feeling that about a third of my Mythic was cheap only because of people cheating.
3: Achievement is an important part of finishing a difficult item. I never said it was all of it. You're still devaluing it.
4: Not in terms of things cheaters have done, but if people like you continue, they likely will. SE likely tuned late Voidwatch NMs with the fact that level 85/90 empyreans were incredibly common.

[Cow_k]

Hard content doesn't even matter. If the player-base knows there's a ton of players with awesome gear, they're only going to want those people. Why take someone with scrub gear to any content no matter how easy if you can shout for 3 seconds longer and get someone fully decked out.

Maybe it's just Sylph (I doubt it) but most people won't take you if you haven't got the top of the shelf stuff. That hurts a player who has to work really hard to get their gear.

[Kuhlitoraal]

Do you people read what you're typing when you're justifying the behavior? I honestly don't care who cheated, don't play the game anymore. I would prefer the people who are admitting it just fucking own it. You're cheating, it's fucking wrong regardless of if it makes the game more fun to you, and you don't give a shit if it ruins other peoples experience, because even if it was more cut and dry in that area, you'd still do it

Just own it, don't spit out these half-hearted retarded excuses that wouldn't hold up upon any inspection. You think because it's just a game that all of a sudden these retarded arguments hold water. I mean shit there are things I don't like about life, if I decide to exploit things to make large gains, "to have more fun because some parts of life are just boring", do you think that excuse is going to get me anything other than laughed at?

You cheated, you obviously don't give a shit, so own up to it and stop trying to make rationalizations to excuse it.

[Mercilessturtle]

Wasn't ffxiv even worse about that?

Arguably, yes. It is amazing that there isn't a single competent programmer on either team. It would only take one to stop this kind of retarded shit.

[Hoshiku]

I'm not sure I buy the hurting the economy argument. It certainly made alex more available (bought the 20k I was looking to buy instead of farm in a week) but the price didn't start tanking until very recently on my server and tanking was a 2k drop. None of the supplies that I bought on a regular basis went up in price so I didn't see crazy inflation. Maybe it negatively impacted the ring market but you can blame that on the price of -ite stacks and those players chose to keep rising those prices. The new WoE items don't seem crazily overpriced either for the first week of content after a patch. I've been hoarding gil since marrow farms were profitable for a rainy day and I don't feel like that money was devalued by this.

[hey]

Because we dont want to get our shit b&?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So the problem isn't that it's harmful to the game, you just don't want to get banned. That makes sense.

Because you're taking the the whole feeling of accomplishment out of the game for most people and again, that's why most people still play ffxi. On top of that, if everyone cheats their way through all content, what game will be left? People are really going to want to do delve for no reason more than a few times? The whole point of the game is to cooperate with other people to achieve end goals. If this were a purely single player game, I'd agree with you, but people play MMOs for the loots and the feeling it comes from being at the top. Sure there are other reasons, but 90% of the playerbase keeps playing for the reason I just stated. You're fooling yourself otherwise.

And again, there are ways to play this game without being on an official server if you want this to be a single player game. Why screw with the people who want to play a legitimate experience when all you care about is yourself and playing the game like a single player experience?

I am? I still got the same sense of accomplishment when i did stuff like ultima/omega duo at 75 that i would have if i didn't have the best possible gear. Making progress on my mythic still felt good, even with the alexandrite requirement being the easiest part. Getting maat's cap was pretty great, even though i just used a 99 spharai mnk to exp in abyssea. HQing difficult synths was always great, even if in practice i could have just tried a million times until i got it. I had plenty of goals, and felt just as accomplished as anyone else. My goals were simply different. Taking the fun out of the game (which didn't really happen,at least for me, it made it much more fun) still isn't harmful to anyone but the cheater though, so i'm not sure how this is relevant.

1: I didn't say a shitton. I said NEARLY ALL of it, like >99%, since this is a "cooperative" game. FFXI is definitely a competitive game, or else things like epeen, afterglow, gear that enhances your abilities by 0.1% but is valued because it's rare, etc. But then again, this leads into number 2.
2: A lot of people care. You'd be surprised what someone with strong morals cares about. I know a friend of mine who actually quit (though probably only temporarily) because the mythic they finished recently was mostly from cheap salvage exploit Alex. I wouldn't go that far myself, but it still gives me a bad feeling that about a third of my Mythic was cheap only because of people cheating.
3: Achievement is an important part of finishing a difficult item. I never said it was all of it. You're still devaluing it.
4: Not in terms of things cheaters have done, but if people like you continue, they likely will. SE likely tuned late Voidwatch NMs with the fact that level 85/90 empyreans were incredibly common.

1) Why would i do that? If i gave away 99% of the alex i got, i wouldn't even be able to pay for the food and meds i used for it. red curry buns, remedies in case i got paralyzed, and panacea for defense down wasn't cheap! Cooperating with others doesn't mean giving away everything you have until you have nothing left.
2) Getting upset over the littlest things is his own fault.
3) Well shit, maybe we should ask SE to raise the requirement to 100k alex, just to increase the sense of achievement.

and you don't give a shit if it ruins other peoples experience, because even if it was more cut and dry in that area, you'd still do it

Explain how it ruins the experience.

Just own it, don't spit out these half-hearted retarded excuses that wouldn't hold up upon any inspection. You think because it's just a game that all of a sudden these retarded arguments hold water. I mean shit there are things I don't like about life, if I decide to exploit things to make large gains, "to have more fun because some parts of life are just boring", do you think that excuse is going to get me anything other than laughed at?

If you aren't hurting anyone, then yes, if you can find a way to make people's lives better, that's incredible, please do it.

[NynJa]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So the problem isn't that it's harmful to the game, you just don't want to get banned. That makes sense.

lol.

[Priran]

Being poor was unenjoyable so I started a ponzi scheme. I dunno how you can say it hurt anyone, I spread a lot of money out into the economy. I tipped a valet a hundred once. I'm essentially a philanthropist like that.

[hey]

I'm not sure I buy the hurting the economy argument. It certainly made alex more available (bought the 20k I was looking to buy instead of farm in a week) but the price didn't start tanking until very recently on my server and tanking was a 2k drop. None of the supplies that I bought on a regular basis went up in price so I didn't see crazy inflation. Maybe it negatively impacted the ring market but you can blame that on the price of -ite stacks and those players chose to keep rising those prices. The new WoE items don't seem crazily overpriced either for the first week of content after a patch. I've been hoarding gil since marrow farms were profitable for a rainy day and I don't feel like that money was devalued by this.

It likely depends a lot on the server. I looked at ffxiah to see how many alexandrites were being sold in every server, and most had < 1000 in total for sale when i checked, but a few like sylph and some others had upwards 10,000 (at the one particular moment i checked), with multiple people selling > 2k. This was about 3 months ago. It was really rampant on sylph i know, and alex dropped from 13k to 8k in like a month while i was doing it.

[Fwahm]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So the problem isn't that it's harmful to the game, you just don't want to get banned. That makes sense.

I am? I still got the same sense of accomplishment when i did stuff like ultima/omega duo at 75 that i would have if i didn't have the best possible gear. Making progress on my mythic still felt good, even with the alexandrite requirement being the easiest part. Getting maat's cap was pretty great, even though i just used a 99 spharai mnk to exp in abyssea. HQing difficult synths was always great, even if in practice i could have just tried a million times until i got it. I had plenty of goals, and felt just as accomplished as anyone else. My goals were simply different. Taking the fun out of the game (which didn't really happen,at least for me, it made it much more fun) still isn't harmful to anyone but the cheater though, so i'm not sure how this is relevant.


1) Why would i do that? If i gave away 99% of the alex i got, i wouldn't even be able to pay for the food and meds i used for it. red curry buns, remedies in case i got paralyzed, and panacea for defense down wasn't cheap! Cooperating with others doesn't mean giving away everything you have until you have nothing left.
2) Getting upset over the littlest things is his own fault.
3) Well shit, maybe we should ask SE to raise the requirement to 100k alex, just to increase the sense of achievement.

Explain how it ruins the experience.

If you aren't hurting anyone, then yes, if you can find a way to make people's lives better, that's incredible, please do it.

Fun fact; you aren't everyone. Not everyone is as okay with the concept of cheating as you are. I know it's surprising, but people that aren't okay with cheating aren't obsessing over little things, they're concerned about big things. In a game like this that doesn't have complex storylines to discuss or speculate about, or real life monetary rewards (unless you RMT, which is again, cheating), one's feeling of achievement is the only true measure of success. Why do you get super rare ultra HQ gear? For the feeling of achievement of getting it, and so you can use it to clear other things, which gives you more feelings of achievement.

Again, I repeat; people feel like their achievements are less valuable if they were made easier by cheaters. You keep saying that it doesn't hurt other people or the game, when I gave an exact example of it making someone quit AND making SE lose a subscription. You saying that they're overly sensitive not only focuses on your own values, but it also glosses over the fact that it factually hurt other people and the game in a concrete way.

[hey]

Being poor was unenjoyable so I started a ponzi scheme. I dunno how you can say it hurt anyone, I spread a lot of money out into the economy. I tipped a valet a hundred once. I'm essentially a philanthropist like that.

Stealing money from people obviously hurts them. Producing items in large amounts and then selling them for a fair value doesn't.

[NynJa]

lol.

Maybe I should elaborate on this.

It should be a bannable offence because it IS harmful to the game.

[hey]

Fun fact; you aren't everyone. Not everyone is as okay with the concept of cheating as you are. I know it's surprising, but people that aren't okay with cheating aren't obsessing over little things, they're concerned about big things. In a game like this that doesn't have complex storylines to discuss or speculate about, or real life monetary rewards (unless you RMT, which is again, cheating), one's feeling of achievement is the only true measure of success. Why do you get super rare ultra HQ gear? For the feeling of achievement of getting it, and so you can use it to clear other things, which gives you more feelings of achievement.

Yup, i agree. That's the entire reason i played (and cheated).

[NynJa]

Stealing money from people obviously hurts them. Producing items in large amounts and then selling them for a fair value doesn't.

Who decides the fair value? If the fair value was 15k because the community can only generate ~125 alex per day, 15k is the fair value. If a group of people come along and illegitimately produces 3000 in a day and drops the value to 7k because they've generated a massive overstock through illegitimate means, how is that the fair value?

[Shenrien]

I assume it's something like feeding the server the "I accepted a tag" packet when interacting with the NPC, which it'll accept without the tag check, reason probably being the NPC menu for that is checked client-side.

at least we still have unbreakable abyssites to exploit the VNM market ..

[Fwahm]

Okay, maybe I exaggerated with the "only" reason to play. Some people play so they can do stuff with friends. However, it doesn't change my point.