Salvage Bans v 2.0

[PSOfanatic]

I think you all worry too much for a game that needs to be free to play :3

[Malithar]

key word everyone was surprised, meaning they expected them to perma ban. the fact of the matter is it was probably too wide spread compared to what is happening now and SE didn't want to lose more of their dwindling playerbase

I dunno, I'd think most did not expect a perma from this last batch. I personally know two that were caught up in the first batch, both three dayed. That seemed much much more on the hush hush side of exploits compared to gear farming. Gear farming has been openly talked about on a few forums, and judging by the bans, quite a few had bought into the whole "well SE just temped the one's who were doing something 10x worse, I'll enjoy my three day vacation when it comes!"

FWIW, the two I knew that were 1-3 mythics deep in the first batch didn't bother for round 2. Round 2 seemed to be more the common "I just wanna catch up" player rather than the exploitallthethings kinda people some are painted to be. Not true for all cases of course, just what I've seen of it. I don't know anyone on Bahamut that's caught a ban, but I know of one that is at least spooked by these reports.

[Baelfael]

I think you all worry too much for a game that needs to be free to play :3

If it still makes them money, why would they bother making it F2P? >_>

Seems a lot like entrapment though to not properly fix an exploit and to leave it open to tempt people to continue to do so they think they can legitimize the offense more. As if gaining thousands of alex a day wasn't bad enough. <_<

[vivbiibasjiu]

Underestimating human nature or frankly ignoring it is irresponsible regardless of the person performing the action of malice being in the wrong. Everyone wants your lunch so no its never safe. Such should be expected, and for some reason it is not.

Difference between my lame analogy and this is everyone loses because SE was lazy and I might as well call it their utter carelessness.
They now have less customers (this matters much more now than it ever did at 75 cap bans) and good people are gone. I am not talking about that RMT that gets banned 50 times and does it again, no one cares.
I am talking friends who had a lack of compelling reasons to play. We all know these people, and we know why they did it. Them being on game is worth more than all the meaningless things in this game like a mythic that means nothing more than some parse numbers and sentimental value.

Honestly, most of the time that I see people bitch about some people using third party tools to do something that either did not effect them or had no meaningful impact on them that they don't truly like people more than a video game. Similar to people who condone others being thrown in jail for recreation drug use when it doesn't even have anything to do with them.

This isn't NPCing fish so I would agrue it does not make a meaningful impact on the economy. It is not like if all the existing gil changing hands from alex went away people would go "oh I am not paying xx for xx anymore because of the alex". It is not like the average item is going to cost more because of tons of alex coming in. Even the ele rings +1 have gone down significantly in price regardless of all the alexandrite from both exploits. All this has done is make alex cost less and people buy more things so it does what? Hurt legitimate farmers who get away with faster money than boring dynamis? Woah!

The RMTs will come right back, and the real players will not.

Simply put: Even ignoring the economic effects, cheating is wrong for the same reason cheating has always been wrong. It devalues the achievement of someone who actually worked for their things legitimately. That's why cheating in school, cheating in sports, cheating in anything is generally considered bad by people who aren't desperately trying to justify their own cheating.
Who would you respect more, someone who studied their ass off and earned a doctorate degree, or someone who cheated their way through school and had it handed to them? Same applies to a mythic owner. I wouldn't want a doctor without the proper credentials operating on me, that's for sure. Undeserved mythic owners haven't proven they're worthy of their weapon, yet they're going to get priority seating over people who don't have one but may be better (and legitimate) players.

With your logic, how does some random person I don't know or care about getting murdered affect me? It may not personally affect me, but it's still wrong. Even if no one in the universe cares about the person. Still murder. Still wrong. Likewise, cheating is wrong even if were true that it doesn't affect anybody (it does)

Unfortunately a lot of people think they're 2kool4skool and rules don't apply to them, hence the butthurt of people banned, even though they deserved it. Games are literally defined by their rules, and if you're not going to abide by them, why play? Might as well flip over the monopoly table and grab the entire bank and claim it as yours. Cheating is cool and fun!

SE's banning policy is pretty random and obtuse but it's about time they do something about it, at least. So I'll give them props for trying, even if it's too little too late. The entire game has already been mucked up and tainted by third party exploits running amok unchecked for far too long. That's another problem with cheating: It drives away people who don't care for it. Not everyone is comfortable with having to cheat to get ahead, and will be turned off and quit the game. SE loses money this way, too. More than you may think. So no matter the dwindling player base because for every botter/exploiter/hacker/thirdpartytooluser/whatever you want to call it, a legitimate player will replace them and SE breaks even.

[Mercilessturtle]

you're a moron if you exploit and don't expect repercussions

You're a moron if you can't even read the words you quoted. I did expect repercussions. I expected a temp ban, because they set the precedent that they only temp ban now even for the most massive blatant hacks. Obviously I knew there was a chance they would perma ban, and obviously I care little enough about playing ffxi that I took that chance.

[Sechs]

vivbi not saying I don't agree with you, but you're kinda stretching the concept.
One thing is trusting a doctor during a life-saving operation, another thing is trusting a player in a non-professional (no e-sport) environment.
Also you're failing to see that for a large part those who got mythics "cheating" are very skilled players. So skilled and so hardcore/nerd that they actually play so much that they new about the trick, and exploited it to get multiple mythics.
That is the average scenario we're talking of here, not the "single noob who doesn't know how to play and managed to get a mythic with cheats", which I think it's quite the minority.

I agree cheating is bad, but really putting the trust variable inside a game is kinda stretching the concept, imho.

[dasva]

What about the doctor that cheated or stole or whatever in order to get better tools/equipment to do his job and save more lives? Sure he might not have "proven he is worthy" those tools/equipment but he still put them to good use.

Not really sure I understand your priority idea since the same applies to "legit" mythics

[Hitou]

I think people are watching too many TV dramas. Situations like "Suits" don't really occur in real life that often if at all. Also comparing someone cheating "for the greater good" to someone wanting to skip days worth of farming to get a virtual weapon a litter faster is laughable. Cheating is wrong. If people cheating are okay with it? Whatever, just don't cry when you get caught. People are just butt-hurt because they thought SE didn't care about cheating anymore and now suddenly it seems they do.

I do agree it's pretty stupid that people doing the exact same thing before the patch got a lesser punishment but SE has never been known for its even-handedness.

[D44kpunk]

You're a moron if you can't even read the words you quoted. I did expect repercussions. I expected a temp ban, because they set the precedent that they only temp ban now even for the most massive blatant hacks. Obviously I knew there was a chance they would perma ban, and obviously I care little enough about playing ffxi that I took that chance.

so you continued to EXPLOIT expecting a temp ban?

i'm not going to continue to argue with you, you clearly have no idea how games work if you didn't know there was a pretty good chance you'd get perma'd.

botting sure, exploiting i have no idea how you wouldn't expect at least a chance at a perma

[Spicyryan]

Simply put: Even ignoring the economic effects, cheating is wrong for the same reason cheating has always been wrong. It devalues the achievement of someone who actually worked for their things legitimately. That's why cheating in school, cheating in sports, cheating in anything is generally considered bad by people who aren't desperately trying to justify their own cheating.
Who would you respect more, someone who studied their ass off and earned a doctorate degree, or someone who cheated their way through school and had it handed to them? Same applies to a mythic owner. I wouldn't want a doctor without the proper credentials operating on me, that's for sure. Undeserved mythic owners haven't proven they're worthy of their weapon, yet they're going to get priority seating over people who don't have one but may be better (and legitimate) players.

With your logic, how does some random person I don't know or care about getting murdered affect me? It may not personally affect me, but it's still wrong. Even if no one in the universe cares about the person. Still murder. Still wrong. Likewise, cheating is wrong even if were true that it doesn't affect anybody (it does)

Unfortunately a lot of people think they're 2kool4skool and rules don't apply to them, hence the butthurt of people banned, even though they deserved it. Games are literally defined by their rules, and if you're not going to abide by them, why play? Might as well flip over the monopoly table and grab the entire bank and claim it as yours. Cheating is cool and fun!

SE's banning policy is pretty random and obtuse but it's about time they do something about it, at least. So I'll give them props for trying, even if it's too little too late. The entire game has already been mucked up and tainted by third party exploits running amok unchecked for far too long. That's another problem with cheating: It drives away people who don't care for it. Not everyone is comfortable with having to cheat to get ahead, and will be turned off and quit the game. SE loses money this way, too. More than you may think. So no matter the dwindling player base because for every botter/exploiter/hacker/thirdpartytooluser/whatever you want to call it, a legitimate player will replace them and SE breaks even.

In my opinion putting countless hours into a video game is not an achievement, and neither is a mythic. People seem to confuse rarity with achievement. It is a sentimental object to someone, and unless they are some stubborn loner it is a collective embodiment of associations and friendships that go into it piece by piece along with that persons effort. These banned people matter more to others, and the life of this game (as well as others playing it) than the game does to them.

The requirements have not changed, and someone cheating it has no impact on how "important" your achievement is. From the level cap going up, to salvage costing less, to einherjar costing less, to assaults being accessible by one instead of three, to salvage 2 providing more currency than salvage 1 had, mogbonanza, etc. The achievement was already devalued by SE more so than any third party tool could have ever done.
What is more of an insult to the perceived achievement? Someone taking a few weeks to do something from repetitive farming or someone like Toysoldier who is a subless mule with a mythic because they won a cats eye and afked for nyzul, einherjar, etc? So what that doesn't count because he won a giveaway? Not even, because the point is SE shits more on anyone's "acheivements" than the entire collective of the "third party exploits running amok unchecked for far too long".
I also have no idea how a game on a bleed from lack of durable content and modern appeal also replaces these players with "legit" players when new impatient cheaters obviously come with them. That simply lacks any sort of logic to me unless there is some "purity pool" we can fish these suckers from.

Are you really comparing cheating in a fucking video game to murder? This cheating hurts no one where as murdering someone takes the life from their very eyes. Tell me since "(it does)" effect people. How did people making a mythic quicker through farming the same floor over and over again effect you?
There is a difference between being upset people don't do what YOU want them to and someone doing something that harms you, and even then in this case that is a stretch.

Sure games are "defined by their rules", but FFXI is not a simple game of Monopoly. It is a social interaction and a sharing of fun sometimes memorable experiences. Depending on the severity of the relationship it can become life changing. Trips to meet people, relationships, and even those we have seen get married and have kids because of this game. Now we have a hybrid here in terms of game and reality. On top of that most games where the rules matter (sports, competitions, etc) have a known end that is expected. There is a clear victor in these settings, and the rules are there to protect that. Rules do not define 11, and there is no winner or loser in FFXI.
Someone reaching over and "claiming the entire Monopoly bank" is not the same as someone speeding up the process of obtaining a mythic. One is immediate and one is still two months work at the least.

You will also have to explain to me how someone running somewhere faster or going through walls in Nyzul has "mucked up" this game.
That and thinking people leave in any meaningful amount because of cheating turning them off to the game. Instead of the obvious lack of meaningful durable content, being bored, losing interest, not having time, or upset over the natural process of replacing old gear they worked hard for with new gear. These things actually makes people leave. This all just sounds like a lot of butthurt to me.

[dasva]

I think people are watching too many TV dramas. Situations like "Suits" don't really occur in real life that often if at all. Also comparing someone cheating "for the greater good" to someone wanting to skip days worth of farming to get a virtual weapon a litter faster is laughable.

It's about as laughable as comparing breaking rules of a video game to cheating to get a medical degree... I just figured I'd maintain the same level of insanity

[NynJa]

you're a moron if you exploit and don't expect repercussions, everyone was surprised when SE did not perma ban the people doing the "ten times worse version."

key word everyone was surprised, meaning they expected them to perma ban. the fact of the matter is it was probably too wide spread compared to what is happening now and SE didn't want to lose more of their dwindling playerbase

Except this makes no sense because there have been multiple testimonials of people GMing their own mules for "botting" (when actually just being idle), and having those mules banned. So they're killing off their dwindling playerbase and banning accounts who have done nothing wrong other than "hey, he's botting", without looking into it.

[Spicyryan]

Except this makes no sense because there have been multiple testimonials of people GMing their own mules for "botting" (when actually just being idle), and having those mules banned. So they're killing off their dwindling playerbase and banning accounts who have done nothing wrong other than "hey, he's botting", without looking into it.

SE: Silly players we don't put money into what you pay for!

[fantasticdan]

The requirements have not changed, and someone cheating it has no impact on how "important" your achievement is. From the level cap going up, to salvage costing less, to einherjar costing less, to assaults being accessible by one instead of three, to salvage 2 providing more currency than salvage 1 had, mogbonanza, etc. The achievement was already devalued by SE more so than any third party tool could have ever done.

I don't know if that's really true, I'd be surprised if even 20% of the mythics on my server were made legit. They went from a rarity to plenty of players having 2-3 of them after salvage duping became common knowledge.

[D44kpunk]

Except this makes no sense because there have been multiple testimonials of people GMing their own mules for "botting" (when actually just being idle), and having those mules banned. So they're killing off their dwindling playerbase and banning accounts who have done nothing wrong other than "hey, he's botting", without looking into it.

still really not convinced of that one, also i thought it was just one guy. now it's "multiple"?

also the guy that worked at SE (yuffy i think?) said that there's no way SE would do that

[Mercilessturtle]

i have no idea how you wouldn't expect at least a chance at a perma

Honestly, are you retarded? You quoted it, you are pretending to reply to it, try reading it: "Obviously I knew there was a chance they would perma ban, and obviously I care little enough about playing ffxi that I took that chance."

[dasva]

still really not convinced of that one, also i thought it was just one guy. now it's "multiple"?

also the guy that worked at SE (yuffy i think?) said that there's no way SE would do that

Did that person still work there? Because things change plus I think different regions work differently

[D44kpunk]

no, they haven't worked there in 2 years. i'm sure things change but i'm still extremely hesitant to believe that an account that did nothing wrong got banned.

and yeah they were on the EU side and i'm aware that NA works differently but it still sounds extremely sketchy.


also butthurt guy, sorry you got banned because you're dumb, you don't care, you're a bad ass

[Hirronimus]

Make this game freemium.

[Spicyryan]

I don't know if that's really true, I'd be surprised if even 20% of the mythics on my server were made legit. They went from a rarity to plenty of players having 2-3 of them after salvage duping became common knowledge.

That means it still takes the same requirements to make a mythic as it did when they came out. I am saying SE has made the game much easier from accessibility and cost of doing salvage (used to have people shouting to pay others to warp so they could go solo farm it) to the ease of all the requirements in general has downgraded the perceived achievement of a mythic. Much more than any third party tools could have sullied the glory of one.

I did not say anything about people making them legitly