Salvage Bans v 2.0

[dasva]

no, they haven't worked there in 2 years. i'm sure things change but i'm still extremely hesitant to believe that an account that did nothing wrong got banned.

I can attest that my mule has been banned no warning for rmting even though in the year before it got banned 99.9% of the time it was solo and the only times it ever was in a pt was with my main and other mule usually tribox though a couple of times with a couple other friends. And the only other character it every traded anything with was my main. Hell it barely made 12 mil a month and spent almost all of it upgrading it's own gear so I could make it more useful. SE still claims that they went back to check again and are sure they found it rmting even though that is complete BS. Meanwhile the character it was actually helping get gear and giving some of the gil too ie me nothing.

[D44kpunk]

RMT bans are totally different than botting/exploiting.

most RMT bans are completely automated as far as i can tell, but yeah that's shitty i have no idea what happened there. sucks to hear it :/

[Spicyryan]

RMT bans are totally different than botting/exploiting.

most RMT bans are completely automated as far as i can tell, but yeah that's shitty i have no idea what happened there. sucks to hear it :/

I picture some dude with hairy legs being contracted by SE to put on some fishnets and lure these RMT into some 'transactions' to 'automate' the process along.

[Xantavia]

You will also have to explain to me how someone running somewhere faster or going through walls in Nyzul has "mucked up" this game.
That and thinking people leave in any meaningful amount because of cheating turning them off to the game. Instead of the obvious lack of meaningful durable content, being bored, losing interest, not having time, or upset over the natural process of replacing old gear they worked hard for with new gear. These things actually makes people leave. This all just sounds like a lot of butthurt to me.

To use your example, going through walls in Nyzul messes it up for people playing legit. People able to consistently hit floor 100 in NNI? SE figures the balance is right. Then everybody who isn't cheating ends up left so far behind. Or the alex drop-rate. Suppose SE wanted the drop-rate to average 100 pieces a run, but due to some coding error, the average run was only giving up 50. People cheating are bringing out 150 pieces, so in the minds of SE, the drop-rate is exactly where it should be, when it should actually be tuned up higher.

[NynJa]

To use your example, going through walls in Nyzul messes it up for people playing legit. People able to consistently hit floor 100 in NNI? SE figures the balance is right. Then everybody who isn't cheating ends up left so far behind. Or the alex drop-rate. Suppose SE wanted the drop-rate to average 100 pieces a run, but due to some coding error, the average run was only giving up 50. People cheating are bringing out 150 pieces, so in the minds of SE, the drop-rate is exactly where it should be, when it should actually be tuned up higher.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ufmGXTLfuj...t+you+know.jpg

When SE knocked 20k alex off the requirement, that number could have been lower, but its possible SE assessed the amount of alex in the game, including the triple amount the dupers were creating (if you want to call it 2.5x since they werent duping singles, call it 2.5x), and felt like knocking it down to 30k was sufficient.

[Spicyryan]

To use your example, going through walls in Nyzul messes it up for people playing legit. People able to consistently hit floor 100 in NNI? SE figures the balance is right. Then everybody who isn't cheating ends up left so far behind. Or the alex drop-rate. Suppose SE wanted the drop-rate to average 100 pieces a run, but due to some coding error, the average run was only giving up 50. People cheating are bringing out 150 pieces, so in the minds of SE, the drop-rate is exactly where it should be, when it should actually be tuned up higher.

Even cheaters didn't make it to floor 100 every time (or even 70% of the time), but SE does not care how many people can clear something. The people doing this are not keeping it from being properly adjusted IMHO. SE only makes the content easier over time slowly now for those who couldn't clear it to clear it while others are already done with it.

Let's immediately jump to AV as a great prime example. The only people who killed it were the ones with exploits, and naturally they were banned. There were a couple of various exploits by different groups that killed AV and no one else could for years because AV was insanely unreasonable. Where was SE figuring the kill rate and difficulty was appropriate there? Was banning people who exploited the game by using the game and not third party tools a fair and just thing? No, there is no fairness from SE, and there never will be. They are as fair and balanced as Fox News.

Then when they lowered the HP of AV finally. The result was that we had kclub zergs on him, and so what do they do? Punish the players by nerfing SE damage to him, and then release years of add ons that resisted spirit damage (ACP final, Abyssea, and w/e NMs added in that period happened to, idr which, but w/e) as a response/taunt.

Yet, when PW is finally killed via non-third party exploits (I think it it is fair to call it that) of logging people out and using weakened BLUs to cannonball because SE didn't penalize BLU magic damage while double weakened. They get praised for it on the front page of PO. So somehow logging out to avoid a monsters moves at certain %s is praise worthy to SE yet a KC, chopper, ridill, etc DRK zerg using nothing but the tools at their disposal is out of line, and yet also perfectly fine on Kirin.
This is the logic they take to "balancing" content.

How many threads on the official forums did we constantly have saying that 'NNI is too hard please adjust it'? What was their response to their player base? We want it to be difficult, and we don't want just anyone to be able to beat it. We like it where it is at for the moment being.

So where exactly did cheaters keep Nyzul from being properly balanced when SE has this mindset? About what content should be (in their minds) and should represent instead of seeing it the way it actually is?

Oh, and you know what the kicker was with NNI? It was a true throwback to the past (KC zergs) because without embrava even the cheaters would have severely struggled. So what does SE eventually respond with?

"We don't want PD and Embrava being used as a crutch" so if they had nerfed embrava during NNI (especially after the lamps going server side) then I bet you the cheaters would be feeling a 20-35% win rate.

If they cared about NNI being balanced appropriately they would not have made players success and failure largely depend on a fucking random number generator for floor jumps..

When SE knocked 20k alex off the requirement, that number could have been lower, but its possible SE assessed the amount of alex in the game, including the triple amount the dupers were creating (if you want to call it 2.5x since they werent duping singles, call it 2.5x), and felt like knocking it down to 30k was sufficient.

There is no real way of knowing how much water that holds or a way to debate it like with NNI. However, going by the other requirements and considering the era in which they were put out there. How much more do you really think they would have taken off? Even if Alex was not being duped at all I can't see it as being more than 10k (to 20k total) they would have taken off if even that much, but my opinion there really means nothing because it is pretty unsubstantial.

[NynJa]

Unless you have a way to travel to parallel universes where the dupe exploit never existed, theres no way to tell what would or would not have happened.

[Petitssk]

With NNI, however, you have to keep in mind that getting to floor 100 wasn't the only way of obtaining the best equipment drops. I'd rather say it was the "Floor 100 or bust"-mentality of the players that made it as big a headache as it was.

Edit: Come to think of it, this also reminds me of the first round of Salvage bans. I recall people considering the possibility of drops from Salvage not having their droprates increased because the total amount of drops looked fine to SE.

That being said, while SE has been inconsistent with the severity of their bans, I wouldn't exactly blame them. If people cheat, they should expect consequences (which might not necessarily be predictable), same as six years ago. Putting the blame on SE when they simply could have not cheated is only to blame on them. If people think they're being smart by pushing their bans to the limit, then they need to move on and accept that expecting SE to be consistent in their handling of bans wasn't exactly smart, seeing how SE has shown to be anything but that in a slightly infamous incident in which masses of players were banned for exploiting the previous version of the very event the players were exploiting.

[NynJa]

With NNI, however, you have to keep in mind that getting to floor 100 wasn't the only way of obtaining the best equipment drops. I'd rather say it was the "Floor 100 or bust"-mentality of the players that made it as big a headache as it was.

You can kill floor 80 5 times for 1 item of your choice, or you can kill floor 100 1 time for 1 item of your choice and a potential extra 0-3 items. The choice seems pretty simple lol.

[Teryu]

Wasn't it like, 20 times?

[Sechs]

With NNI, however, you have to keep in mind that getting to floor 100 wasn't the only way of obtaining the best equipment drops.

Oh but it was the only way for a long time, until one of the many "tweaks" SE released to make NNI easier than it was originally.
And yes, back then it was pretty annoying to see countless noobs walking with level 100 gear because they hacked or because they bought it from groups selling drops etc.
But that was a personal issue of mine I guess. Back then I was in a period where my previous static had died, the new one I would have been some time later didn't exist yet, and I found myself struggling into an event that was so random and frustrating I didn't even want to bother with it anymore.
(yes, I don't exactely have the biggest strength of will around, but could you blame me in a situation like that?)

[NynJa]

Wasn't it like, 20 times?

I just looked at the page history...yeah, 25 times lol

[dasva]

Wasn't it like, 20 times?

I think it was that or 25 or something stupidly high at first to the point where it'd basically take a full month of floor 80 wins which was still a crap shoot to get to with no stopper just to get the same result of a worse case scenario level 100 win. Even a 2% win rate while rather frustrating would've probably been better than trying for 80

[Petitssk]

That is true, no doubt, but personally, I don't see an issue even with 20 Astraria, seeing how many of the items were the best you could have. Considering how long it takes to farm other comparable equipment, or rather took (pretty much anything pre-2010) or how entirely random the other source of "best" equipment was at the time (VW) it seems rather tame, to be honest. 20-30 days for one guaranteed piece, depending on rate of success, is quite decent, though I might still be stuck in my old mindset because I was inactive from 2009-2013.

In general, however, if I were told to pick an apple from an apple tree without help from outside and I'd be rewarded based on the branches height, I'd probably not go and grab a ladder while the guy is looking away. Why not opt for one of the lower branches instead? In the long run, it will get you the same result, but using the ladder definitely has a lot to do with the mentality of having to have the best equipment for all jobs right now. When people feel that they must have all sets, I can see why they would feel more compelled to reach floor 100 by any means necessary, though in that case you might as well start wondering if the players should have accepted the way the game was designed or whether SE should have adjusted to the player's mindset and the evolution of the playing style, which made several jobs at max level a bit of a requirement (though I think that would be too far away from the actual topic).

[Sechs]

That is true, no doubt, but personally, I don't see an issue even with 20 Astraria

I dissent from that.
I mean, I respect your point of view but I don't consider it reasonable.
First: while statistically more doable, even reaching level 80 still had a high degree of randomness and it still required pretty tough setups, highly skilled people and high coordination. And even then, randomness could still fuck you up easily. So it's not like you could take the "easy and slow way" and farm those pieces slowly because while easier, even floor 80 was highly unreliable to reach, during the first phases of the event (not talking about later in after 20000 nerfs)
Second: Try to see the perspective of someone who needed/wanted all 15 pieces. Can you believe how long it would have taken? How many "statics" survive that long, honestly? And don't forget we're talking about 1 tag every 24hrs, and people might have wanted those tags for Mythics (rare) or for Assault Points used for Salvage (way more common).

So yes, sorry but I don't consider that reasonable.

[Petitssk]

I dissent from that.
I mean, I respect your point of view but I don't consider it reasonable.
First: while statistically more doable, even reaching level 80 still had a high degree of randomness and it still required pretty tough setups, highly skilled people and high coordination. And even then, randomness could still fuck you up easily. So it's not like you could take the "easy and slow way" and farm those pieces slowly because while easier, even floor 80 was highly unreliable to reach, during the first phases of the event (not talking about later in after 20000 nerfs)
Second: Try to see the perspective of someone who needed/wanted all 15 pieces. Can you believe how long it would have taken? How many "statics" survive that long, honestly? And don't forget we're talking about 1 tag every 24hrs, and people might have wanted those tags for Mythics (rare) or for Assault Points used for Salvage (way more common).

So yes, sorry but I don't consider that reasonable.

I actually agree (expanded upon it a little in the second paragraph), mainly because it wouldn't have worked overly well, even in pre-2010 FFXI. Taking the difficulty aside, I think one of the biggest issues is the amount of equipment that comes from NNI. I don't really know how many pieces from NNI are mandatory for each of the jobs, but given the fact that working towards one piece essentially blocks you from getting others (and even from doing unrelated events due to the assault tags involved), it's somewhat questionable to put so much of the best equipment into a single event.

Were there less equipment, I'd still stand by my original statement, but I agree, 25 is definitely too much given how much equipment you can get from there. With less pieces, however, I still think it would be fine.

[Spicyryan]

That is true, no doubt, but personally, I don't see an issue even with 20 Astraria, seeing how many of the items were the best you could have. Considering how long it takes to farm other comparable equipment, or rather took (pretty much anything pre-2010) or how entirely random the other source of "best" equipment was at the time (VW) it seems rather tame, to be honest. 20-30 days for one guaranteed piece, depending on rate of success, is quite decent, though I might still be stuck in my old mindset because I was inactive from 2009-2013.

In general, however, if I were told to pick an apple from an apple tree without help from outside and I'd be rewarded based on the branches height, I'd probably not go and grab a ladder while the guy is looking away. Why not opt for one of the lower branches instead? In the long run, it will get you the same result, but using the ladder definitely has a lot to do with the mentality of having to have the best equipment for all jobs right now. When people feel that they must have all sets, I can see why they would feel more compelled to reach floor 100 by any means necessary, though in that case you might as well start wondering if the players should have accepted the way the game was designed or whether SE should have adjusted to the player's mindset and the evolution of the playing style, which made several jobs at max level a bit of a requirement (though I think that would be too far away from the actual topic).

You did not even do NNI when it was new or relevant so why would you go and talk about it when you have no real clue? Even after the stopper was added do you know how insanely mind numbing that would be?
What other comparable equipment took as long to farm when NNI was new as 25 floor 80 wins (especially vanilla)?
VW may have been random, but you could do it over and over with a chance at getting it (as many did) the first try which was much more certain a win than NNI. In fact It was fairly common to watch people get the Athos's Tights or something in their first set of runs. The drop rate was pretty good on those pieces.

I thought I made some bad analogies, but I don't even know what to say to that apple thing. It is just- yeah- really dumb.
If a player hated game design they don't just accept it. They get fed up and leave or don't participate in the event.
When did SE ever make having several jobs at max level a bit of a requirement??

[Petitssk]

You did not even do NNI when it was new or relevant so why would you go and talk about it when you have no real clue? Even after the stopper was added do you know how insanely mind numbing that would be?
What other comparable equipment took as long to farm when NNI was new as 25 floor 80 wins (especially vanilla)?
VW may have been random, but you could do it over and over with a chance at getting it (as many did) the first try which was much more certain a win than NNI. In fact It was fairly common to watch people get the Athos's Tights or something in their first set of runs. The drop rate was pretty good on those pieces.

If by "comparable equipment" you mean "best", 25 floor 80 wins might (depending on your rate of success or luck) be on par with or less time-consuming than, for instance, any given abjuration from Kings that was popular enough to warrant having people wait in line for it. Come to think of it, I think there are plenty of examples that were much worse than anything from NNI, but as I said above, the only issue is the amount of drops from NNI. Of course, you could argue that you could also get popular abjurations, theoretically, on your first day in a new linkshell, but the reality is that people often waited months, if not years, for certain drops. The same with Voidwatch; of course you could get items in just a few kills, but I recall hearing just as many stories of people taking hundreds, if not even more than thousand, kills to finally get the drop they wanted. It is, simply put, random, which NNI isn't, at least as far as drops are concerned.

I thought I made some bad analogies, but I don't even know what to say to that apple thing. It is just- yeah- really dumb.
If a player hated game design they don't just accept it. They get fed up and leave or don't participate in the event.
When did SE ever make having several jobs at max level a bit of a requirement??

Yes, players leave or don't participate, but if I recall correctly, we're primarily talking about the ones who did neither and saw NNI as an event that necessitated the use of tools like Clipper, so I'm returning your compliment, even more so because I never said that SE made it a requirement to have several jobs at max level; the players did (and, if I'm not mistaken, SE acknowledged that some time ago, but don't quote me on that). I merely wondered whether it was SE who should have adjusted the event accordingly.

[NynJa]

I actually agree (expanded upon it a little in the second paragraph), mainly because it wouldn't have worked overly well, even in pre-2010 FFXI. Taking the difficulty aside, I think one of the biggest issues is the amount of equipment that comes from NNI. I don't really know how many pieces from NNI are mandatory for each of the jobs, but given the fact that working towards one piece essentially blocks you from getting others (and even from doing unrelated events due to the assault tags involved), it's somewhat questionable to put so much of the best equipment into a single event.

Were there less equipment, I'd still stand by my original statement, but I agree, 25 is definitely too much given how much equipment you can get from there. With less pieces, however, I still think it would be fine.

Remember the stopper didnt exist when it was 25 f80 kills for a lv100 piece. And you could only do Nyzul once per day. Presuming you could get to floor 80 every run with a 100% success rate is 375 days, more than a calendar year. Thats still pretty absurd, considering expecting a 100% rate to f80 was nigh impossible.

[Spicyryan]

If by "comparable equipment" you mean "best", 25 floor 80 wins might (depending on your rate of success or luck) be on par with or less time-consuming than, for instance, any given abjuration from Kings that was popular enough to warrant having people wait in line for it. Come to think of it, I think there are plenty of examples that were much worse than anything from NNI, but as I said above, the only issue is the amount of drops from NNI. Of course, you could argue that you could also get popular abjurations, theoretically, on your first day in a new linkshell, but the reality is that people often waited months, if not years, for certain drops. The same with Voidwatch; of course you could get items in just a few kills, but I recall hearing just as many stories of people taking hundreds, if not even more than thousand, kills to finally get the drop they wanted. It is, simply put, random, which NNI isn't, at least as far as drops are concerned.

Remember the stopper didnt exist when it was 25 f80 kills for a lv100 piece. And you could only do Nyzul once per day. Presuming you could get to floor 80 every run with a 100% success rate is 375 days, more than a calendar year. Thats still pretty absurd, considering expecting a 100% rate to f80 was nigh impossible.

Hence why I said if you don't have a clue then why..

Yes, players leave or don't participate, but if I recall correctly, we're primarily talking about the ones who did neither and saw NNI as an event that necessitated the use of tools like Clipper, so I'm returning your compliment, even more so because I never said that SE made it a requirement to have several jobs at max level; the players did (and, if I'm not mistaken, SE acknowledged that some time ago, but don't quote me on that). I merely wondered whether it was SE who should have adjusted the event accordingly.

My mistake, perhaps I just couldn't see the apple through the trees.

NNI is pretty much the first thing ever I can think of in this game that pretty much called for cheating to some extent unless someone wanted to waste a mass amount of time because there was nothing outside their window or something.