Salvage Bans v 2.0

[Petitssk]

Hence why I said if you don't have a clue then why..

As explained above, that applies only to an NNI that does not have 10-15 drops you must have, that is absurd. For a single drop, it would be fine (though, admittedly, that's an unnecessary element of randomness that makes no sense).

My mistake, perhaps I just couldn't see the apple through the trees.

NNI is pretty much the first thing ever I can think of in this game that pretty much called for cheating to some extent unless someone wanted to waste a mass amount of time because there was nothing outside their window or something.

Due to the amount of drops from NNI, that's the key issue, I agree there (though people who tried to get Regain Feathers would probably beg to differ). Excellent pun, though, haha.

[Spicyryan]

As explained above, that applies only to an NNI that does not have 10-15 drops you must have, that is absurd. For a single drop, it would be fine (though, admittedly, that's an unnecessary element of randomness that makes no sense).

Due to the amount of drops from NNI, that's the key issue, I agree there (though people who tried to get Regain Feathers would probably beg to differ). Excellent pun, though, haha.

Just remember cheating is wrong because you should always accept the hand you get dealt!

Going to bed, NN BlueGartr, stay magnificent.

[Petitssk]

Spoiler: show

Just remember cheating is wrong because you should always accept the hand you get dealt!

Going to bed, NN BlueGartr, stay magnificent.

Or you can, as you yourself put it, not participate or quit the game or, alternatively, otherwise contribute to an effort to have the event changed. I suppose we can just agree to disagree.

[Spicyryan]

Or you can, as you yourself put it, not participate or quit the game or, alternatively, otherwise contribute to an effort to have the event changed. I suppose we can just agree to disagree.

*spits toothpaste in the sink and turns out the light*

Yeah, that is sound logic. Our failure, frustration, and time wasted is just a group effort to encourage SE to curb our needless suffering, and if we have an issue with their blatant lack of intuition then we should just not play!

Hold on lets go make a petition thread to have SE change something because those go so well. Maybe we can petition them to close existing Salvage loopholes they rather just ban for or to not ban people simply because someone says someone is cheating too?

How exactly do you purpose a plan of action that has a reasonable chance of being successful then?
Personally, I can't think of anything because they made it clear the other 100 times in 12 years or w/e number we are at now that they do what they want with no true rhyme or reason at times.

*turns off the monitor* Whew!

[Sechs]

FFXI's player base always failed to "get together" for a common goal and have it at Dev's.
Even when like, say, 100 people manage to agree on the official forums on the issue "XXX" there are always goin to be hordes of whiteknights or contrarians who just like to argue against even the best of idea saying that "things are working as intended" and demand people stop talking about it.

The few times when this didn't happen, SE was forced to take action.
I can think of one circumstance over the history of FFXI when this happened: the lack of RME updates post SoA launch. SE wanted to devaluate RMEs because they didn't like people focusing too much on them, they didn't like them becoming such a vital part of the game's economy/balance, they didn't like the gap with other players and them becoming necessary for people to access to events etc.
Such a major outburst of rage happened, in both the US/EU and JP forums, that Devs were kinda forced to take back their position and put an unplanned RME update change in their plans.


There might be other situations I can't remember, but my point is that I can see it possible to make Devs change their mind, as rare as it may be. It just happens so rarely because players fail to come together for a common goal.

[Damane]

FFXI's player base always failed to "get together" for a common goal and have it at Dev's.
Even when like, say, 100 people manage to agree on the official forums on the issue "XXX" there are always goin to be hordes of whiteknights or contrarians who just like to argue against even the best of idea saying that "things are working as intended" and demand people stop talking about it.

The few times when this didn't happen, SE was forced to take action.
I can think of one circumstance over the history of FFXI when this happened: the lack of RME updates post SoA launch. SE wanted to devaluate RMEs because they didn't like people focusing too much on them, they didn't like them becoming such a vital part of the game's economy/balance, they didn't like the gap with other players and them becoming necessary for people to access to events etc.
Such a major outburst of rage happened, in both the US/EU and JP forums, that Devs were kinda forced to take back their position and put an unplanned RME update change in their plans.


There might be other situations I can't remember, but my point is that I can see it possible to make Devs change their mind, as rare as it may be. It just happens so rarely because players fail to come together for a common goal.

you forgot when they wanted you to farm 250 umbral etc for your NORMAL(not afterglow) RME upgrade to 99. The outburst there was intense.

NNI was doable legit, but you needed embrava and powder boots (or how those flee boots are called), but you had to be very very very lucky in terms of floor jumps and floors you get. NNI would have been fine if they would have removed the lamp floors. Lamp floors were the biggest killer for any group.

[Petitssk]

*spits toothpaste in the sink and turns out the light*

Yeah, that is sound logic. Our failure, frustration, and time wasted is just a group effort to encourage SE to curb our needless suffering, and if we have an issue with their blatant lack of intuition then we should just not play!

If a player hated game design they don't just accept it. They get fed up and leave or don't participate in the event.

I apologize, it appears that I mistakenly assumed you were serious about this post.

Hold on lets go make a petition thread to have SE change something because those go so well. Maybe we can petition them to close existing Salvage loopholes they rather just ban for or to not ban people simply because someone says someone is cheating too?

How exactly do you purpose a plan of action that has a reasonable chance of being successful then?
Personally, I can't think of anything because they made it clear the other 100 times in 12 years or w/e number we are at now that they do what they want with no true rhyme or reason at times.

*turns off the monitor* Whew!

So, let's assume we have a player who would like to get NNI-equipment or farm Alexandrites (not for money in this case, mind you). The player hates the process of creating Mythics/NNI, but they have absolutely zero faith in SE, the company in charge of the game. Because of that, they refuse to make any effort to have the content changed.

Quite frankly, I see several issues there. SE is one of them, but so is the player who, apparently, plays a game they don't like, made by a developer they don't trust.

SE doesn't have the best track record of listening to players, no doubt. However, if the only way someone can enjoy a game is by cheating, then they really should simply play a different game. Also worth considering is the fact that, in both cases, the cheating does has negative effects on other players, as it, depending on how many players go this route, raises the equipment-standards, which are, possibly impossible or extremely difficult to achieve for non-cheaters.

As Sechs pointed out, it does happen that SE listens. Most interestingly, it did occur in the case of NNI - and Salvage, at one point. Whether it would have happened sooner is, of course, up to debate, as is the question whether the amount of duped items had a negative effect on it.

[Sechs]

NNI was doable legit, but you needed embrava and powder boots (or how those flee boots are called), but you had to be very very very lucky in terms of floor jumps and floors you get. NNI would have been fine if they would have removed the lamp floors. Lamp floors were the biggest killer for any group.

Lamps were maybe the biggest culprit, but there were other random factors.
Some floors being too big, some retarded limits (no white magic, no ws, no something else) on the wrong floor, or hose annoying gears limits, or once again getting multiple annoying NMs on the same floor with a "kill all" objective.
They're laughable now, but with the gear standards back then some of those NMs together could take quite a big amount of time to kill =/


Edit:
I forgot what was possibly THE biggest culprit for several months, even more than lamps.
It's the randomness of jumps.
Can't help it when RNG gods hate you and give you several 1-floor jumps on the same run.

[Ophannus]

Hell NNI could be hard even with flee hacks if you got bad floor jumps and too many lame Leaders or HNMs on the higher floors(Genbu, Cardamom Custrard) or floor 100 with WS restriction.

Also original marrow trials were 20 for 99 and 1000 for afterglow.

[dasva]

Hell NNI could be hard even with flee hacks if you got bad floor jumps and too many lame Leaders or HNMs on the higher floors(Genbu, Cardamom Custrard) or floor 100 with WS restriction.
.

Man I knew a group that would abuse pre nerf embrava and like 800% movement speed and seeing and clicking thru walls to the point where a single person could do several at the same time lamps... still lost several

[NynJa]

No the original was 250
They scaled back to 20, then 5.

[Spicyryan]

I apologize, it appears that I mistakenly assumed you were serious about this post.

I was, and that is the reaction players give when there is nothing they can do about it.
I didn't say it was right or just, and I just mentioned that NNI was pretty much the first even that called for cheating in some fashion.

I threw that line at you for your idealistic notion that players can "contribute to an effort to have the event changed". Despite how that obviously is not going to happen.

Quite frankly, I see several issues there. SE is one of them, but so is the player who, apparently, plays a game they don't like, made by a developer they don't trust.

SE doesn't have the best track record of listening to players, no doubt. However, if the only way someone can enjoy a game is by cheating, then they really should simply play a different game. Also worth considering is the fact that, in both cases, the cheating does has negative effects on other players, as it, depending on how many players go this route, raises the equipment-standards, which are, possibly impossible or extremely difficult to achieve for non-cheaters.

As Sechs pointed out, it does happen that SE listens. Most interestingly, it did occur in the case of NNI - and Salvage

We are talking about people cheating in NNI. No one said or believe (do you...?) that the only way people can enjoy a game is by cheating.

Remember, Windower, gearswap, and all of those lovely plugins are cheating, and they personally make me enjoy the game much more.

Raising the equipment standard? No one ever shouted for "WHM with nares pants", "DD with phorcys body", etc. They shouted for REM DDs, and that was the standard before and after Nyzul.

Sechs pointed out that one time there was such major backlash over REMs that SE listened, and when they did it was about 4-6 months later (I don't remember exactly). This rather isolated event of "listening" does not give them any sort of track record or support the idea that players can make a difference. He never said they listened on NNI, and the history of it and their responses is the proof to the contrary. What exactly did they listen about with Salvage too?

[Hoshiku]

Who would you respect more, someone who studied their ass off and earned a doctorate degree, or someone who cheated their way through school and had it handed to them? Same applies to a mythic owner.

You don't understand how a doctorate works if you think you can cheat your way to one. You might be able to lie your way to one but you would still have to do a hell of a lot of work and exhibit understanding of a myriad of topics and depth of knowledge in a few.

[Limlight]

i'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore, life isn't fair? video games aren't fair? se does a bad job at times (or the majority of the time)

are you all new??? was the first thing that came to my mind.

[Ophannus]

I was almost 100% positive that the 250 marrows was just what we saw on the test server and they explicitly said what's on the test server will not accurately reflect what the live version will be. Then when it went live, it was 20.

[Ophannus]

As a doctoral student, the prospect of cheating your way to one would be quite the caper. Sure you could fudge your data but you'd still be throwing away like 5-7 years of your life, and your dissertation committee would have to be pretty lazy to not check your work/methodology, then there's also doctoral exams which are impossible to cheat on because they're methodology exams that take 7-10 hours of composing a hypothetical experimental design.

[NynJa]

I was almost 100% positive that the 250 marrows was just what we saw on the test server and they explicitly said what's on the test server will not accurately reflect what the live version will be. Then when it went live, it was 20.

I dont care enough to find it, but there was a massive thread on OF about it. The reason for the outburst was because of HMP's. They were 1500 on the test server, and people assumed its just a placeholder number, and SE will change it when it goes live...nope, goes live, 1500 HMP's. So when people saw 250 marrows, of course they jumped out guns blazing.

[Hoshiku]

As a doctoral student, the prospect of cheating your way to one would be quite the caper. Sure you could fudge your data but you'd still be throwing away like 5-7 years of your life, and your dissertation committee would have to be pretty lazy to not check your work/methodology, then there's also doctoral exams which are impossible to cheat on because they're methodology exams that take 7-10 hours of composing a hypothetical experimental design.

If your committee lets you graduate without grilling you verbally for 1-3 hours on random tangential shit that's not in your thesis but you should have thought of then you have a piss poor committee.

[TummieGaruda]

I was almost 100% positive that the 250 marrows was just what we saw on the test server and they explicitly said what's on the test server will not accurately reflect what the live version will be. Then when it went live, it was 20.

Here is the basic timeline:

In the December 2011 update, the items were introduced, but the trials were not available. Then in January of 2012 they added the trials to the test server and asked for players to test it. Camate posted the numbers required in the OF:

S1 - 20 for relic, 10 for mythic, 60 for emp
AG - 1000 for relic, 500 for mythic, 3000 for emp


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...004#post268004


He also stated that the numbers were temporary and they would balance them out. Then the shitstorm occurred and Camate had to reiterate that the numbers were just temporary on the test server and they should have said "The number required will be between 1 and 9999"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...498#post269498

Finally on Jan 31st they released the finalized S1 requirements:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...132#post271132

and on the 13th of February the AG requirements:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...473#post279473

So it was all adjusted before it was released in an update.

[Ophannus]

If your committee lets you graduate without grilling you verbally for 1-3 hours on random tangential shit that's not in your thesis but you should have thought of then you have a piss poor committee.

Not to detract from the thread further, but this is kind of expected. It's like a nerdier version of hazing, except the club/frat is the PhD club or whatever fellowship you subscribe to.