Salvage Bans v 2.0

[dasva]

People did bitch hard. My point was people keep holding on to this delusion that if we all bitch about something then SE will just have no choice other than to change it.

Anything takes SE months and months. Sorta like the history of avatars

I'm still waiting for the pet th gear they promised back when they removed th2/3 from our thf pets. Hell there have been a total of like a dozen bug reports about a lot of additional effects being completely broken for how many years now? And they even acknowledged it almost a year ago I think and it's just now being addressed lol

[D44kpunk]

Adding as well as I haven't played this for around 4 years, but my second account was banned due to "rmt". I'll be straight up and say yes I did rmt, but I did it on my main only(alt was borrowed from a friend so I didn't want to harm their account). I was very surprised when that account was banned so I sold my main and moved on. In other words, SE is the bullshit and no one should be surprised on anything they do.

If any of the gil you RMT'd came off the alt that would be an instant ban reason.

RMT bans are also totally different, in some cases they target IP or credit card, totally unrelated to botting bans as i said before/as anyone at SE will say

[Hoshiku]

Oh man that is slow as heck. If I was going to do that and had to fight trash (like say on a mule without great DD gear) I'd at least try foret or morimar

I think they're watching morimar pretty closely (or some hyper vigilant player is reporting everyone in that zone on my server). Most people I know who set up in morimar have gotten 72 hour temps.

[Spicyryan]

I think they're watching morimar pretty closely (or some hyper vigilant player is reporting everyone in that zone on my server). Most people I know who set up in morimar have gotten 72 hour temps.

Personally I don't get this. If I was going to bot something for CP I would pick a zone that doesn't have much traffic like Moh Gates. Sure Dho Gates is much better, but people go there.

Then I would change it up to another zone or then a corner of Cirdas someone doesn't use etc.

Whole point of botting in my mind is to get shit done while you aren't there and not to do everything for you. So these lazy people who just bot the same zone over and over really bring it upon themselves.
You know, outside of a cheating standpoint.

[Hoshiku]

Then I would change it up to another zone or then a corner of Cirdas someone doesn't use etc.

Oh man, the last time I was running around Cirdas trying to figure out what was behind all those random walls I found a whole alliance of bots in there. I guess I can see the inherent laziness in always picking the same camp but I can't say that I think any area is more safe than another. Moh gates was a favorite place of mine to go for a while when I was ranking up coalitions. I've bounced around in Dho gates as well working on coalition stuff. I like to go to all of the basement areas and explore or kill NMs. I think no matter where you go you're likely to be encountered by someone (no place is truly remote thanks to waypoints). As for the morimar ppl who got temps, I don't think they'd been there daily - I believe they got caught on the first or second time they went there (which is why I think SE might be watching that zone closely).

[NynJa]

Anyone running bots right now with this much heat deserves to get their shit b&

[Petitssk]

I was, and that is the reaction players give when there is nothing they can do about it.
I didn't say it was right or just, and I just mentioned that NNI was pretty much the first even that called for cheating in some fashion.

I threw that line at you for your idealistic notion that players can "contribute to an effort to have the event changed". Despite how that obviously is not going to happen.

[...]

Sechs pointed out that one time there was such major backlash over REMs that SE listened, and when they did it was about 4-6 months later (I don't remember exactly). This rather isolated event of "listening" does not give them any sort of track record or support the idea that players can make a difference. He never said they listened on NNI, and the history of it and their responses is the proof to the contrary. What exactly did they listen about with Salvage too?

Sorry for the late answer, currently not at home.

I think you might have read a little too much into "make an effort" - it's just one of the many routes one can take, as opposed to going the exact other way and cheating and then claiming that it's SE's fault when one winds up banned.

Nonetheless, I don't think it's as idealistic an idea as you think it is, as SE has listened in the past. While one could probably want to distinguish between cases in which SE has hit the brakes and made immediate adjustments and cases in which SE has, after considering feedback, made adjustments of their own volition, both cases are a result of players voicing their opinions.

In Salvage, droprates were adjusted after many complaints (possibly after the amount of Salvage-drops in circulation finally matched the amount of complaints once the Salvage-ban had hit). Furthermore, the chest at the beginning was added. If I recall correctly, the cost of the permit was reduced as well.

Nyzul Isle saw similar adjustments, having the chest introduced, weapons added to all NMs and Runic Disc progress counting not only towards the user's disc.

NNI had stoppers introduced and the required amount of Astraria reduced.

Einherjar had adjustments made to the difficulty (didn't all mobs link at the start?) and the feather-requirements for Valgrind eased.

Sea had the droprates of Virtues raised to 100% instead of whatever they were before that. Then again, Sea also had AV, so it might not be the best example here.

Regardless, these are the examples I have the clearest memories of, mainly because I was the most active during the times these events (minus NNI) were considered endgame and there were plenty of other adjustments made, not strictly to endgame-activities, but also to other aspects of the game (changes to Call Wyvern for DRG, storage introduced for Seals, CoP-missions made easier, most notably Promyvion right after the launch etc.).

Due to that, the very idea that, instead of at least voicing your opinion, simply being like "fuck SE", not saying anything because you don't trust SE as far as you can even spit and cheating instead, then complaining because people are banned, seems absolutely counter-intuitive to me. SE takes some time to respond to issues, but to me it seems like cases in which they don't answer completely overshadow the many, many cases in which they did answer.

We are talking about people cheating in NNI. No one said or believe (do you...?) that the only way people can enjoy a game is by cheating.

Remember, Windower, gearswap, and all of those lovely plugins are cheating, and they personally make me enjoy the game much more.

Raising the equipment standard? No one ever shouted for "WHM with nares pants", "DD with phorcys body", etc. They shouted for REM DDs, and that was the standard before and after Nyzul.

Of course, you don't have to cheat to enjoy the game. However, that raises the question why people feel the need to cheat or otherwise clear content by any means necessary even though they don't have to do said content when they risk being banned for that.

Regarding Windower/Gearswap etc., yes, they make you enjoy the game much more while not negatively affecting other players (though, playing without Windower, I kind of feel like arguing that I do feel some pressure due to the lack of Gearswap).

However, I fully understand why people want to use those and I certainly wouldn't complain about them (and I think it's a very good thing that SE does not have appeared to crack down on the player-base using said tools). However, we should not make this a Windower/cheating debate, though that's not exactly necessary anyway.

As long as your tools don't negatively affect me, I really don't mind - as long as people don't complain if they're banned, that is (though I'd definitely question SE's sanity if they started banning huge amounts of Windower-users, however they're able to discern them).

With events completed by other means, however, there's a very real possibility that I'm being negatively affected. Said event might not see adjustments because the drops in circulation do not indicate problems with it. Not to mention, players that refuse to cheat to complete said content might have problems doing it mainly because, especially in the case of NNI, people might not want to do it without cheating (say, getting to floor 80 the required amount of times), whether they're aware of cheating party members or not.

I think you can disregard the mention of gear-standards, though. I thought there was more time between the launches of NNI and Legion, but, seeing how they were released only one month apart, I highly doubt that Legion's difficulty was set with the amount of NNI-pieces in circulation, so I'm sorry about that.

[D44kpunk]

not to play devils advocate since you guys are derailing pretty hard but.. SE only made those changes after the content was irrelevant.

they are notorious for not listening to the playerbase at all, i don't think anyone can argue that

[Hoshiku]

I would argue that the only impact salvage pos hacking has had on non pos hackers is that it made it worthless to farm alex. I don't really see mythic ownership being a requirement to do much nowadays (seeing as our koga sams are rotting in favor of iziikoh thfs). It sucked to have that income devalued but finding other ways to make gil wasn't terrible.

[Petitssk]

not to play devils advocate since you guys are derailing pretty hard but.. SE only made those changes after the content was irrelevant.

they are notorious for not listening to the playerbase at all, i don't think anyone can argue that

Frankly, I disagree. Despite the fact that many of the years prior to the introduction of the OF were suffering from a lack of communication-platforms that directly connected SE and the playerbase, all of the cases I listed pertained to content that remained relevant until the introduction of Abyssea or beyond that. If I recall correctly, the changes took place long before that, at least 1 1/2 - 2 years or longer.

[PSOfanatic]

Surprised Ejiin on Rag hasn't been banned yet for botting Delve!

[Mojo]

Frankly, I disagree. Despite the fact that many of the years prior to the introduction of the OF were suffering from a lack of communication-platforms that directly connected SE and the playerbase, all of the cases I listed pertained to content that remained relevant until the introduction of Abyssea or beyond that. If I recall correctly, the changes took place long before that, at least 1 1/2 - 2 years or longer.

Releasing a patch before the content is completely irrelevant does not excuse them for failing to address it in a reasonable amount of time since it was released. Many of the fixes you listed took several months if not years to implement. That's fucking pathetic and there are still many open issues they haven't (or even refuse) to address. Their reputation is well deserved.

[Petitssk]

Releasing a patch before the content is completely irrelevant does not excuse them for failing to address it in a reasonable amount of time since it was released. Many of the fixes you listed took several months if not years to implement. That's fucking pathetic and there are still many open issues they haven't (or even refuse) to address. Their reputation is well deserved.

I certainly won't argue that they address all issues in a timely fashion; however, stating that it's impossible to get through to them or that they never listen is an obvious exaggeration. Nonetheless, I agree that they did earn their reputation, but, depending on the issue, a lot of blame is falsely placed on them.

[Spicyryan]

I certainly won't argue that they address all issues in a timely fashion; however, stating that it's impossible to get through to them or that they never listen is an obvious exaggeration. Nonetheless, I agree that they did earn their reputation, but, depending on the issue, a lot of blame is falsely placed on them.

Don't have time to properly address that long post to me till later.

However the blame isn't false. They made the problem in the first place in the continued case of NNI.

[EjinCaitsith]

Surprised Ejiin on Rag hasn't been banned yet for botting Delve!

That's just me doing 3-6 runs/day using 4 characters(takes 20min/run without any sort of bot), but I find it cute someone has a crush on me.

[Malithar]

That's just me doing 3-6 runs/day using 4 characters(takes 20min/run without any sort of bot), but I find it cute someone has a crush on me.

If the sporadic and inconsistent reports of SE banning innocent lvl 1 mules and such are to be believed, someone having a crush may be all it takes anymore. Kind of scary if it were true, don't quite believe it myself though.

[Spicyryan]

Oh look AH.com now has its 4th salvage thread. Sure this one will be locked too because it is wrong and against the rules to mention people got banned for cheating.

Okay, got back to that long post and there is nothing to really say anything to so:

I think you can disregard the mention of gear-standards, though.

That's okay I never regarded them.

That's just me doing 3-6 runs/day using 4 characters(takes 20min/run without any sort of bot), but I find it cute someone has a crush on me.

And they haven't even seen your balls.

[EjinCaitsith]

If the sporadic and inconsistent reports of SE banning innocent lvl 1 mules and such are to be believed, someone having a crush may be all it takes anymore. Kind of scary if it were true, don't quite believe it myself though.

I have not seen 1) a post with any sort of proof or 2) a post from someone I trust. Everyone who has been banned so far seems to have deserved it.

Dasva is the only really vocal one about being falsely banned, but he openly admits to fish botting and botting lair reives in the past. I mean, no offense to him, but he definitely did something at some point in time to deserve the ban in 1 way or another so I don't understand his outrage that he managed to get hit with the hammer once.

[dasva]

I have not seen 1) a post with any sort of proof or 2) a post from someone I trust. Everyone who has been banned so far seems to have deserved it.

Dasva is the only really vocal one about being falsely banned, but he openly admits to fish botting and botting lair reives in the past. I mean, no offense to him, but he definitely did something at some point in time to deserve the ban in 1 way or another so I don't understand his outrage that he managed to get hit with the hammer once.

Actually I this is before reive botting was really worth it. While I admit that I've done bannable things I wasn't banned for anything I did. Hence the outrage. There is also the whole non-rmt stuff gets warnings and suspensions first while I didn't get any because of false rmt charges. So I literally got banned for nothing the wrong doing I did amounted to all of about a few million a month meanwhile others makes billions get a 3 day. It would be like if you got thrown in jail for trumped up charges for a major crime and get thrown the book while all you did was a minor crime (that none of the people deciding punishment knew about) and meanwhile people actually commit major crimes get time served and get to keep what they stole. I mean by that logic everyone who goes to court should just expect to be found guilty because we've all broken some law right? Like I don't know all of what you do... you did say you don't bot so I assume not that but being on here and 4 boxing I assume you use some 3rd pt tool so how would you feel if you were accused of botting like you were just now and banned for it? Would it be fine because you use windower or whatever?

[EjinCaitsith]

If SE started banning for use of Windower, I don't think anyone would have the right to complain. It might have become the status quo, but it's clearly against their rules. You can't compare it to a court of law where there are elected judges and a jury of your peers involved to weigh in on the decision. If you don't like how SE enforces their admittedly random ToS, you have the right to stop doing business with them.

Actually I this is before reive botting was really worth it. While I admit that I've done bannable things I wasn't banned for anything I did. Hence the outrage. There is also the whole non-rmt stuff gets warnings and suspensions first while I didn't get any because of false rmt charges. So I literally got banned for nothing the wrong doing I did amounted to all of about a few million a month meanwhile others makes billions get a 3 day.

Nowhere in the ToS does it say you get 1 warning before being perma'd. It's clearly all arbitrary and something that changes based on what SGM/GM you run into and orders they get from higher up on what to enforce and what not to based on a specific frame of time that changes. I've personally had friends that were perma'd also for only 1 offense of fish botting, so your experience isn't exactly something new, either. For all you know in that span of time they started tagging all fish botters as RMT and the fact you said they even reviewed the ban a second time means you clearly had it coming.

Don't forget SE said they went through over a year's worth of logs and data for the first round of Salvage bans all those years ago. It's highly unlikely their ability to search through logs and access information to incriminate people and ban them hasn't been lost, but they just seem extremely reluctant to dedicate the type of resources it'd take to do such a thing.