Salvage Bans v 2.0

[Hoshiku]

My concern is that since we have no evidence that they're checking to see if you're there and actually playing that they may ban people who farm JP for too long of a time (or any time at all if random players GM them). I definitely killed tulfaire in marjami for 18 hours one day during the very first sacred kindred crest campaign. If I'm botting and I get a ban for it that is totally fair. If I am putting my time into farming something and I get banned for it, that is going to suck. I know people (myself included) who are afraid to do anything that resembles killing mobs in a dungeon or field right now for fear of getting a temp ban.

[NynJa]

They even claimed they used log data as a method to obtain evidence needed in order to ban people for the original Salvage bans.

Except all the original salvage bans took was "Did this one group get three Linen Purses and are constantly breaking and rejoining the alliance?" vs determining botting from looking at logs of someone killing a mob for 3-4 hours. Considering people used to grind xp for hours on end, its not unheard of.

Until there are more accounts of people calling a GM on an innocent person and having them be banned shortly after, there's literally 0 evidence to prove they aren't doing an investigation and would go against everything they have ever done in the past to avoid bans at all costs.

Then try it out yourself, maybe other people dont want to risk one of their POLid's if its indeed true? Telling people "I dont believe it because it hasnt happened to someone I know without proof" is kinda absurd, considering the burden of proof requires getting your shit b&

[dasva]

You're talking about the company that 3 day banned people who were making billions of gil and undeniably had a negative impact on the economy for players farming Salvage the legitimate way. You're talking about a company that allowed fish botting to run rampant for over 5 years when it would have been extremely easy for them to stomp it out immediately. You're talking about the company that totally ignores the existence of Windower(thank god they do, I wouldn't even play this game if it wasn't for Windower, but the point remains). This is a company that goes out of its way to NOT ban people who are blatantly cheating. Why is it the assumption now that when they ban people that were clearly doing bannable things in the previous several months that they are suddenly banning people without proof?

Until there are more accounts of people calling a GM on an innocent person and having them be banned shortly after, there's literally 0 evidence to prove they aren't doing an investigation and would go against everything they have ever done in the past to avoid bans at all costs.

All that shows is they are incredibly inconsistent. And what assumption? There are tons of reports of it

Just how many cases do you need for proof? Because I'm completely innocent of what I was charged with. And plenty of other people can confirm there is no way SE can proof they did what they were accused of. Where's your proof that they are doing an investigation?

[EjinCaitsith]

Except all the original salvage bans took was "Did this one group get three Linen Purses and are constantly breaking and rejoining the alliance?" vs determining botting from looking at logs of someone killing a mob for 3-4 hours. Considering people used to grind xp for hours on end, its not unheard of.

Then try it out yourself, maybe other people dont want to risk one of their POLid's if its indeed true? Telling people "I dont believe it because it hasnt happened to someone I know without proof" is kinda absurd, considering the burden of proof requires getting your shit b&

I know people (myself included) who are afraid to do anything that resembles killing mobs in a dungeon or field right now for fear of getting a temp ban.

Where's your proof that they are doing an investigation?

Because if they were ham handedly giving out bans for just killing CP mobs for 2 hours, we'd be flooded with false cases of people being banned for no reason. Instead, it's people getting banned that knew they were doing something they would probably get banned for, but not in the way they were expecting(a tell from a GM asking if they are there) saying "where's the proof, though?!"

[NynJa]

So once again, stick a mule out in a field, and GM them saying "hey I think they're botting" and see what happens. If youre utterly confident that these claims are bullshit, then you have nothing to worry about. I'd rather not risk one of my three mules to prove anything, not to mention I doubt I'm anyone you trust.

[EjinCaitsith]

I already gave you an example of several people on my server calling GMs on Slyshen for AH botting/RMT activity. Why do you feel I need to call a GM on myself to prove anything. It should be proof enough that there's only been 1 reported case of that actually working, which could have been completely made up. Do you seriously think that after reading this there wasn't a crap ton of people who called a GM on someone they hated in the game. Clearly there's been no backlash since, unless every person reported was actually guilty and accepted the ban without complaining?

[fantasticdan]

I already gave you an example of several people on my server calling GMs on Slyshen for AH botting/RMT activity.

The recent wave of bans people are talking about isn't for AH botting or RMT activity thou.

[Ophannus]

Couldn't the STF feasibly check their server logs and delineate differences between bots and players? Bots send inputs using packets and spam abilities and spell queues faster than players. Surely the STF would be able to see a player using a bot program is using Provoke to pull mobs much faster than a regular player, or is running a predefined path/getting stufk on obstacles and other idiosyncrasies that they can probably make an algorithm to detect? Bots are known for attempting to use a spell/JA many times faster than a player, for example trying to use a JA when it's not actually ready results in it spamming it many times per second, faster than any human, couldn't they detect that? Makes me also wonder how they cant detect players rapidly changing gear than any player using packets, like how do they not detect it?

[Byrthnoth]

A well written bot won't be easily distinguished from a player apart from its endurance. It would be much easier to, for instance, identify everyone who uses treasury, gearswap, etc.

[dasva]

Because if they were ham handedly giving out bans for just killing CP mobs for 2 hours, we'd be flooded with false cases of people being banned for no reason. Instead, it's people getting banned that knew they were doing something they would probably get banned for, but not in the way they were expecting(a tell from a GM asking if they are there) saying "where's the proof, though?!"

So basically you have no proof? Glad we cleared that up. Again clearly they are just being highly inconsistent about it. A few people got thru means shit. And again if they had conducted an investigation of my mule they apparently didn't find it was botting since they never accused me of that but instead went with some trumped up charges. If that isn't proof to you then nothing is

[NynJa]

I already gave you an example of several people on my server calling GMs on Slyshen for AH botting/RMT activity. Why do you feel I need to call a GM on myself to prove anything. It should be proof enough that there's only been 1 reported case of that actually working, which could have been completely made up. Do you seriously think that after reading this there wasn't a crap ton of people who called a GM on someone they hated in the game. Clearly there's been no backlash since, unless every person reported was actually guilty and accepted the ban without complaining?

So what you're asking for is proof that something may have happened in the past (one to two weeks ago), and now that the heat is off you're denying the entire thing may have happened to begin with since no one has any proof today?

[EjinCaitsith]

So basically you have no proof? Glad we cleared that up. Again clearly they are just being highly inconsistent about it. A few people got thru means shit. And again if they had conducted an investigation of my mule they apparently didn't find it was botting since they never accused me of that but instead went with some trumped up charges. If that isn't proof to you then nothing is

Do you read? My proof is that we aren't being swamped with people claiming they were falsely banned due the the fact SE is just "guessing" who to ban as you are seeming to imply. It's just you(mule who you admit was cheating daily fish botting that happened a year ago so isn't even relevant to this conversation) and the guy's mule on FFXIAH(nothing to back it up or anything to support his claims).

Do I think it's possible SE can make a mistake and ban someone who didn't deserve it? Yes. But forgive me for not freaking the fuck out like you and Nynja are and asking for a little more evidence to support these claims before worrying that SE is going around banning innocent people for nothing.

[dasva]

Do you read? My proof is that we aren't being swamped with people claiming they were falsely banned due the the fact SE is just "guessing" who to ban as you are seeming to imply. It's just you(mule who you admit was cheating daily fish botting that happened a year ago so isn't even relevant to this conversation) and the guy's mule on FFXIAH(nothing to back it up or anything to support his claims).

Do I think it's possible SE can make a mistake and ban someone who didn't deserve it? Yes. But forgive me for not freaking the fuck out like you and Nynja are and asking for a little more evidence to support these claims before worrying that SE is going around banning innocent people for nothing.

Do you even read? I just said that is proof of shit. At best it proofs SE is inconsistent... well no shit we already knew that. You are going to have to explain how the fact that you personally haven't seen or heard of lots of people being falsely banned is proof it never happens. Anyways what about the 4 or so locked threads in ffxiah? Are we going to assume every last one must have been guilty and caught cheating? What about all the people that dodged bans does that mean SE doesn't ban people!?! Pretty sure I was saying that I was making only a few million a month fishing... hardly daily.

Forgive me for not whiteknighting SE like you are. Come on if you are so damn confident put a call on yourself. Forgive me for asking for any evidence of what you say. You can believe whatever the hell you want but I have personal knowledge that it does happen. Not even sure what you are trying to prove by arguing against what actually happened to me with a bunch of assumptions. Why not just come out with it and call me a liar? I mean heck the fact none of the accounts I'm currently playing have even got a talking to from a GM in over a year (well outside of the GM calls I've made) must mean what happened to my old one didn't right?

[Limlight]

summary i'm getting so far.

if something happens to me, things have to change!

If it hasn't, working as intended.

Also sprinkle in some people who enjoy posting their opinions on the net but have no real input on the subject (like me!)

[NynJa]

Nothings happened to me or the 5 people in my LS, nor the 20 chars in my LS.

[Spicyryan]

You're talking about the company that 3 day banned people who were making billions of gil and undeniably had a negative impact on the economy for players farming Salvage the legitimate way. You're talking about a company that allowed fish botting to run rampant for over 5 years when it would have been extremely easy for them to stomp it out immediately. You're talking about the company that totally ignores the existence of Windower(thank god they do, I wouldn't even play this game if it wasn't for Windower, but the point remains). This is a company that goes out of its way to NOT ban people who are blatantly cheating. Why is it the assumption now that when they ban people that were clearly doing bannable things in the previous several months that they are suddenly banning people without proof?

Until there are more accounts of people calling a GM on an innocent person and having them be banned shortly after, there's literally 0 evidence to prove they aren't doing an investigation and would go against everything they have ever done in the past to avoid bans at all costs.

Big deal, that is like saying if everyone farms alex then they are hurting the Alex economy. It means nothing at all really. Should I cry I made a relic when currency was 7-9k a piece at 99 VW era before Adoulin and now its 3-5k a piece because datcurrencyeconomy? Marrows? THE HQ IFRIT RINGS?! Anything anyone farms goes down, and Alex was on that track already, but obviously this sped it up. For less than an hours worth of farming you make out with a sizable reward especially for the effort and even now. I didn't know people were entitled to make as much as possible.

Okay what is your solution to fish botting? I didn't know it wasn't rampant anymore too. I guess everyone must just be skilling up legitimately until their brain slides out of their nose from boredom or while they have binged watch the entire series of seasons of Friends to their skill ups. Lol, "extremely easy", I like how it is as simple as pressing the button at your local Staples.
I remember those goblin bounty hunters and limiting characters under 20 or less than a week old to basically no fish a day. Man those were the days. Thanks for letting it run rampant SE! Apparently it is easy to just pick up a sniper ban rifle and take all these rotten cheaters to the pasture! Forget the collateral damage we have a war going on! If only SE didn't hate us so much they could shake off their extreme apathy and ban people for over a decade who have just been cheating and sometimes apparently rampantly so!

Pretty sure the assumption is against people instead of giving them a fair justified shot as they are supposed to do because ain't nobody got time o' money fo' dat at SE nomo'e.

We should just start a thread to collect these accounts. "Wrongly Banned, Liars and The Ones Who Got Bent".

[dasva]

Somewhat an aside but it could be hard to say when these reports were actually file. But back a few months before the last server merge I transferred servers and within the first 3 days both accounts I was using at the time got a nice visit from a GM. Find out that my ex had reported them to the STF... so unless she reported on different days looks like they can take varying times even if reported at same time. Granted this was awhile ago but I'd figure they would probably be even more undermanned now so who knows how far back some of this is from. Heck reports filed now might actually be going thru and we will see those bans in a few weeks. Also a funny side note the 2nd account was originally hers so she was reporting her own account

[Sudox]

So basically you have no proof? Glad we cleared that up. Again clearly they are just being highly inconsistent about it. A few people got thru means shit. And again if they had conducted an investigation of my mule they apparently didn't find it was botting since they never accused me of that but instead went with some trumped up charges. If that isn't proof to you then nothing is

People are fallible and it is entirely possible that the given reason for your ban was written/reported incorrectly. That particular mistake, however, should not absolve you of all ToS violations you did willingly perform.

Is it not possible you were investigated and proven (in the investigative team's mind) to be guilty of a ToS violation unrelated to RMT?

[dasva]

People are fallible and it is entirely possible that the given reason for your ban was written/reported incorrectly. That particular mistake, however, should not absolve you of all ToS violations you did willingly perform.

Is it not possible you were investigated and proven (in the investigative team's mind) to be guilty of a ToS violation unrelated to RMT?

Well if it had just left it as is I'd say possibly but I went back and talked to them again and again even submitted for them to review and got told repeatedly that was guilty for the exchanging of real money for in game services or items. A couple of them actually said rmt or real money trader. If it was a "mistake" it's one they continually repeated. And at 2 times they even said they were going to rollback... before finally going back to you are a dirty rmt. I really should have screenshotted those.

In fact when I asked them about the disparity between my case and say the salvage thing (ie no warning perma vs 3 day suspension) since it occurred close together they talked about how rmting is investigated and handled differently and by different people that's why not only did I not see anything in game but why it went straight to ban. Which seems in accordance with what the people who have divulged information about gm policies and why rmt stuff is so different since it's exclusively stf handled

[gaira]

i'm sure SE accommodates for false positives knowing that a lot of people will continue to play, and start over with new accounts when previously banned. the odds are simply in their favor that when they do make mistakes, it won't cost them much business.

you may want that resolution of knowing how and why they screwed up in your specific case, but you aren't really entitled to it. best to not give SE your business if it matters enough to post about over and over for so long.