Salvage Bans v 2.0

[Spicyryan]

Yeah, the same way players can report others as they see fit, and SE can ban as they see fit.

Except the difference is that everything from using a great axe on DRK, to being a lol119EmpyWAR, to not spending as long to get to the same place for the hundreth time does not affect others at all (simply don't play with them) and makes these people content. People trying to permanently stop others from playing because they disagree with them does.

And then everyone can not-play FFXI together in a year!

I'm ready to solo delve with 5 trusts. Bring it on Rhapsodies!

[Lolwutt]

Is there an upside to banning people doing relatively benign stuff? Most would agree not, better to have a higher amount of subscriptions and it sucks if you lose a good friend to bans.

Do you have any right to complain you got banned for cheating? No.

Do you have any right to complain someone reported you for cheating? No.

It's not that complicated, if you're upset people are getting banned maybe you should spread the word that cheating has consequences now instead of demanding nobody report each other.

[ColenzoRidesAgain]

Except the difference is that everything from using a great axe on DRK, to being a lol119EmpyWAR, to not spending as long to get to the same place for the hundreth time does not affect others at all (simply don't play with them) and makes these people content. People trying to permanently stop others from playing because they disagree with them does.

I'm pretty sure that the people that run the game gave me and every person the option to report people for a reason. You have no right to get your dick bent out of shape over getting banned if I choose to set the ball in motion. You can keep trying to peddle this "oh it doesn't effect you, you have no right" idea all you want but the fact of the matter is that I do have the right. You're an idiot and you're probably going to get banned and its nobody's fault but your own so cry harder bitch nigga.

[dasva]

One post about vomp hill is not sufficient evidence to prove 'innocents' are getting banned. While people are right that the line could be drawn anywhere, in months we haven't had a single credible account of someone getting banned who didn't speedhack or bot. We aren't losing innocents right and left, they aren't banning people to kill the game. If they want to shut it down, they can do so anytime with no explanation to us.

I can understand the confusion the first few weeks after they started banning, people were getting hit for old offenses. People were getting hit afk in town. That doesn't make any of them innocent, though. Perhaps SE developed a tool that will automatically scan a character or account's history for extended activity, impossible speed, etc. It's well within the realm of possibility to make such a thing, and logs would likely go back at least a month since that's how long item restore was good for back in the day. You get GMed, GM runs tool on your account, if anything shows up you get booted.

You really don't know that "innocents" aren't being banned just that no one claiming to be completely innocent has come forward on non official forums. It's one thing to check for impossible speeds or position hacking etc but some of things people are getting banned for things that are completely undetectable outside of your computer. Given that logic dictates that either there methods of determination are more along the appearance of guilt and as such can and will include innocent people or they are using methods which aren't really legal.

[Lolwutt]

You really don't know that "innocents" aren't being banned just that no one claiming to be completely innocent has come forward on non official forums. It's one thing to check for impossible speeds or position hacking etc but some of things people are getting banned for things that are completely undetectable outside of your computer. Given that logic dictates that either there methods of determination are more along the appearance of guilt and as such can and will include innocent people or they are using methods which aren't really legal.

'completely undetectable' and 'detectable beyond reasonable doubt' are much different

lets say their available logging keeps track of every character movement and action(pretty reasonable)

now, you filter for stretches over 4 hours without a 30-minute break, as far back as logs go

let's say you come up with 1 result for 22 hours of play with no afk time greater than 30 min, that could be a legitimate player that went nuts

now, you come up with 5 results for 20-30 hours of play with no significant afk time in there? pretty reasonable to assume they're cheating and ban them

you could look at tighter intervals as well, no 3 minute break for 6-8 hours? unique chat?

the bottom line is that every credible report was by someone who, sometime in the last year, was botting or speedhacking.. unless you're able to see SE's exact protocol any attempt to claim innocents are getting netted in it is just trying to make them out to be the bad guys for enforcing their own rules

[Suteru]

I'm pretty sure the ToS says they can ban you for any and no reason. Innocent or not, we are all at the mercy of SE and there isn't much we can do about it.

[Spicyryan]

I'm pretty sure that the people that run the game gave me and every person the option to report people for a reason. You have no right to get your dick bent out of shape over getting banned if I choose to set the ball in motion. You can keep trying to peddle this "oh it doesn't effect you, you have no right" idea all you want but the fact of the matter is that I do have the right. You're an idiot and you're probably going to get banned and its nobody's fault but your own so cry harder bitch nigga.

Spoiler: show

I never said you didn't have the right. Still makes you a complete dick though.

Could you at least spoiler that obnoxious shit?

Spoiler: show

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...all_trolls.jpg

Dasva, it is because innocent people don't use BG.

[dasva]

'completely undetectable' and 'detectable beyond reasonable doubt' are much different

lets say their available logging keeps track of every character movement and action(pretty reasonable)

now, you filter for stretches over 4 hours without a 30-minute break, as far back as logs go

let's say you come up with 1 result for 22 hours of play with no afk time greater than 30 min, that could be a legitimate player that went nuts

now, you come up with 5 results for 20-30 hours of play with no significant afk time in there? pretty reasonable to assume they're cheating and ban them

you could look at tighter intervals as well, no 3 minute break for 6-8 hours? unique chat?

the bottom line is that every credible report was by someone who, sometime in the last year, was botting or speedhacking.. unless you're able to see SE's exact protocol any attempt to claim innocents are getting netted in it is just trying to make them out to be the bad guys for enforcing their own rules

Here's the thing though you are using extreme examples (I mean seriously who the hell bots for 20 hours straight?)... and even then they could still be legit. I used to have a friend that never slept in his bed he'd always pass out in front of the game for example.

But here is a less extreme example. One of my mules got hit with a temp for botting reives. Here you have all of about 1-2 minutes of action then 5 minutes of break. On top of that it was never for more than 6 hours at a time and I was always there often chatting or throwing in random agas at the end for fun or running in to see how well I do and well sometimes not doing so well lol. Pretty much always leaving when my merits got close to full to go do high level avatars. Now try tell me they go beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think you mean no one you will accept. There was the vomp hill one and the guy who said he played his main completely legit and separate from the others. Or not the game but what about Byrths recent OF ban for reporting the fishing bug? What we are really seeing is completely innocent people don't frequent non official forums. And no bottom line is that there protocols have to either be illegal or allow for innocents to be caught. There is no wiggle room here. They are either using detection methods that are illegal or they are using assumptions which can catch innocents. Whether or not they have yet is really a moot point. Because it becomes less about them enforcing punishments for catching people breaking rules and more punishment for merely suspecting someone is breaking the rules

[Reposado]

In the FFXI User folder, what are the GM files that are there, a fresh install did not have them, whereas my old install did. Anyone have any idea? It was some crap like gmNotify or something and another reference.

[Hoshiku]

Did you ever make a GM call? You get a file in there for each one you make.

[Kyreth]

( se pls stop

Sure. When people stop cheating, they'll stop banning.

Is this hard to comprehend?

[ccl]

Can I haz ur stuff?

sure for the right price! or if you show legs if you're a cute girl!

ps: you guys white knighting people getting banned, do you not realize when every person that use mouvement speed/afk farm reive/CP is gone you'll have even less person to do stuff with ? They aren't gonna revamp the game for pc so banning botter now is just killing their game faster.

[Hoshiku]

Sure. When people stop cheating, they'll stop banning.

Is this hard to comprehend?

It's not the comprehension that's hard. It's the fact that a lot of our friends are getting banned. I'll tell you one thing, when all my friends are gone SE will lose my $30 a month in sub fees. I'm not saying cheating should be allowed but I'd prefer a better method of dealing with it (roll back the account a few months or something). I really don't care about your moral code here either. I am a consumer and I'm telling you what I want from a product (I want to be able to play with my friends and that's it).

[Lolwutt]

But here is a less extreme example. One of my mules got hit with a temp for botting reives. Here you have all of about 1-2 minutes of action then 5 minutes of break. On top of that it was never for more than 6 hours at a time and I was always there often chatting or throwing in random agas at the end for fun or running in to see how well I do and well sometimes not doing so well lol. Pretty much always leaving when my merits got close to full to go do high level avatars. Now try tell me they go beyond a reasonable doubt.

My point is that unless you know their exact verification method, you can't be positive they don't know you were botting. Unless you know the meaning of every single packet sent through both sockets(one of which isn't hooked by windower/ashita!), they could legally report that you've had no keyboard input for a time period while your character was active. You were botting, you got hit.

There was the vomp hill one and the guy who said he played his main completely legit and separate from the others.

The 'main' that Daak got banned had a dozen afterglow weapons from a buffer overflow exploit on it, and most likely got banned for using a seperate exploit. Not knowing why at the time doesn't mean innocent. Vomp hill is the only questionable one, and the guy makes trollposts all the time so it's hardly a credible post.

Or not the game but what about Byrths recent OF ban for reporting the fishing bug?

OF are seperate from the game, and he's far from the only silly ban there. That said, knowing the mechanics of the fishing bug still involves reverse engineering the software, which is a ToS violation.

What we are really seeing is completely innocent people don't frequent non official forums. And no bottom line is that there protocols have to either be illegal or allow for innocents to be caught. There is no wiggle room here. They are either using detection methods that are illegal or they are using assumptions which can catch innocents. Whether or not they have yet is really a moot point. Because it becomes less about them enforcing punishments for catching people breaking rules and more punishment for merely suspecting someone is breaking the rules

No. See prior example. There are plenty of data points that can be collected legally and confirm usage of 3pp. They can even detect windower/ashita's dlls being loaded if they wanted, legally. You don't know their data collection method, so you aren't qualified to say it's flawed.

[dasva]

Did you ever make a GM call? You get a file in there for each one you make.

Wait really? So I can look back thru my folder and check all my gm calls?

[dasva]

My point is that unless you know their exact verification method, you can't be positive they don't know you were botting. Unless you know the meaning of every single packet sent through both sockets(one of which isn't hooked by windower/ashita!), they could legally report that you've had no keyboard input for a time period while your character was active. You were botting, you got hit.
No. See prior example. There are plenty of data points that can be collected legally and confirm usage of 3pp. They can even detect windower/ashita's dlls being loaded if they wanted, legally. You don't know their data collection method, so you aren't qualified to say it's flawed.

Tell me about these methods of detecting dlls and keyboard inputs and remember to include controllers that are legal then. Otherwise you aren't qualified to tell me I'm not qualified

[Lolwutt]

You don't have to leave FFXI's process to see the windowing application has DLLs loaded into it's memory space. You wouldn't even trigger an antivirus scanning your own application's memory space for mods.. it's a perfectly legitimate call.

As far as keystrokes, the game already has a known method of measuring keypresses(run a bot that uses no simulated keypresses with auto-disconnect turned on, you'll still d/c after 20 minutes even with your character having acted seconds prior). If your bot doesn't simulate keypresses, that idle code knows you're botting. You're counting on it not being reported(and it very well might not be), but you don't KNOW that it isn't.

I get it, having ambiguity is lovely for denial. I didn't want to admit I got suspended for a legitimate reason either. The fact of the matter, though, is at this point in time there has been ONE very casual mention of an innocent being hit with a ban. It makes much more sense that whatever they're doing is accurate than to pretend every single forum poster cheats and that's why we aren't seeing false positives everywhere.

[dasva]

Wait do any popular bots not simulate keystrokes anymore? Because I've never heard of anyone still auto-disconnecting when it was still on while bots were running outside of it had a decent period of inactivity and I can verify people who have gotten banned using bots where that wont happen... so outside of that tell me how they are doing it?

Also let's not forget SE has a history of sweeping up innocents along with guilty. Notably salvage 1 bans or gardening bans.

[Hoshiku]

When you guys are talking about keystrokes does that monitor controller as well? Because there are some people who do everything by controller other than chatting.

[Lolwutt]

I don't use popular bots, I use my own bots. However, for the most part anything using FFACE will have 0 keypresses unless using movement. Anything using the new FFACETools movement method will have 0 keypresses including movement. Anything using windower's movement method will have 0 keypresses.

That's besides the point though, you know they're both allowed to and actively monitoring keystrokes. Almost no bots use them for their actions, something as simple as a provoke 2 minutes after the last keystroke(ingame macros can only /wait 100 seconds!) would be verification of 3rd party use.

I'm not saying this is their method of detection. I'm not saying it even needs to be. I'm saying that they are more than capable of using a method like this, and 3pp developers have made no effort to block against any such method, so if they did it would work. There is no supporting evidence for them banning recklessly, only speculation fueled by feels.