FFXIV 3.0 : Heavensward - Expansion Information and Discussion

[Lucavi]

It sounds like you're describing talent (or spec) trees, really. Blu's "tree", in this case, would be a DPS and a healing tree (I assume you'd have tank-ish spells for a tank tree as well, like cocoon). Sure, that'd work, but then again, some of us have been arguing for specs for years now. Each spec would have to be no worse than any other job with the same function, which still wouldn't do anything to break the "no hybrids" model that the game already has in place. You'd just have blu working as 3 jobs, similar to how Arc branched off into sch and smn, fufilling two of the 3 roles.

[solracht]

It sounds like he's describing Arcanist.

[Takiwaki]

I could envision spells for BLU being the class quests for the job "go out and kill these until X then return to me." I've had the same exact though on role-changing.

Thing is they already are doing this in game with astrologian having 2 stances with very long cooldowns basically allowing it to be a sch or whm at any given point but not at the same time. If they open this up to other jobs it would be awesome, and add some horizontal growth to existing jobs.

Edit, no not Arcanist, Im saying, technically they can make it so that when you change stance or whatever you call it, it will actually change your role in that BLU would be a full on Tank if in healer it would be a full on healer, bascially think of it as 3 jobs in one. Yes arc branched off but those are 2 separate jobs, Im saying its one job but the entire mechanic is that it can swap roles, locking spells for balance so that it can be a full on Tank healer or DPS. No one is specing or there is no tree. I unlock 3 sets of spells for each role as I level, If I swap to tank role only those tank spells will be available and I will tank as good as any tank in game cus Im basically a tank. On party finder I will show up as a Tank, If I swap to healer only healer spells are available I show up in party finder as healer. This is what I meant.

Technically its like making 3 jobs but using blu spells, no weapon swap, gear swap. so it would be a bit easier on animations etc. Can also have less actions available.

[Lucavi]

It sounds like he's describing Arcanist.

He is, just with Smn and Sch repackaged back inside Arc and instead being specs. Archanist, with "Summoner" and "Scholar" specs. That's blu, basically.

[D44kpunk]

You don't need to clear the raids but you do need to clear the story quests and related trials.

i don't suppose you have the source for this? kinda off putting to new players just wanted to read what SE had to say about it

[Rocl]

i don't suppose you have the source for this? kinda off putting to new players just wanted to read what SE had to say about it

Uh, they've stated several times to access Ishgard/Heavensward areas you'd need to clear the MSQ including 2.55

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...0aa80df21ff1fc

* Please note that completion of the main scenario quest "Before the Dawn," is required before undertaking main scenario quests in Heavensward.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2836394

Can I go to Ishgard right after purchasing Heavensward?
In order to access Ishgard, you will first need to complete the main scenario quest "Before the Dawn," which will be implemented in FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn Patch 2.55.

etc these are just two recent sources

[arus2001]

3) hybrid jobs were extremely successful in the only other FF MMO, XI

Okay, convince us. Start from RotZ and work your up through the expansions. Tell us how your perceived successes spanned the trinity. Bonus points if you can link strategies from posts/wikis. I'll add a stipulation, however. If the word, "Utsusemi" is at all a requirement, disqualified.

[Spider-Dan]

Edit, no not Arcanist, Im saying, technically they can make it so that when you change stance or whatever you call it, it will actually change your role in that BLU would be a full on Tank if in healer it would be a full on healer, bascially think of it as 3 jobs in one. Yes arc branched off but those are 2 separate jobs, Im saying its one job but the entire mechanic is that it can swap roles, locking spells for balance so that it can be a full on Tank healer or DPS. No one is specing or there is no tree. I unlock 3 sets of spells for each role as I level, If I swap to tank role only those tank spells will be available and I will tank as good as any tank in game cus Im basically a tank. On party finder I will show up as a Tank, If I swap to healer only healer spells are available I show up in party finder as healer. This is what I meant.

You are precisely describing ACN equipping job stones.

[Takiwaki]

You are precisely describing ACN equipping job stones.

OK then there is no issue in having blu in game if its done that way then

[solracht]

The opposite. Everything they've said over the past year points towards the ACN system being a one time thing that's unlikely to happen again.

[Takiwaki]

The opposite. Everything they've said over the past year points towards the ACN system being a one time thing that's unlikely to happen again.

And job stones are going away. No new classes in 3.0. No one was asking for that system, but no one is saying its not possible to have a new system based on something similar that was done before. In fact its exactly what they are doing with Astrologian

[Spider-Dan]

Okay, convince us. Start from RotZ and work your up through the expansions. Tell us how your perceived successes spanned the trinity.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am claiming every job was successful. THF was pretty clearly a non-hybrid DPS and (post-yokodama) was not particularly desired for anything besides TH. I don't deny that there were failed hybrids, as that's outside the point; the point is that they can be successful, not that every implementation was.

As for examples of successful hybrids (all 75 era):

- CoP/TAU NIN (tank/DPS)
- RDM (support/heal/debuff/CC, tank post-WoG)
- BRD (support/heal/CC)
- COR (support/DPS)

Long story short: give any hybrid good support abilities and they will be successful. (NIN was successful because they were broken and OP.)

[Lucavi]

Okay, convince us. Start from RotZ and work your up through the expansions. Tell us how your perceived successes spanned the trinity. Bonus points if you can link strategies from posts/wikis. I'll add a stipulation, however. If the word, "Utsusemi" is at all a requirement, disqualified.

Oh that's all I can do, because its truth. Just about anything/nin = success. I'm not about to defend the shitty coding and "design choices" of XI, like broken utsu or hilariously pathetic damage modifier disparities between 1-handed and 2-handed weapons for the majority of the popular point of the game, but I'll certainly use it as evidence in my assertions. Ninja was a successful hybrid: a job that could DPS and could tank. Be it because of bullshit design by SE or not, the fact remains. Same for War: great offense, solid defense, especially paired with other /nin.

You wanna see hybrids rule the day? Go back to sky party XP camps on weapons. Superlative efficiency. Maximum damage. Player-based tactics nearly refined to a science. As much as the Drg in me hated it, the Brd in me approved of watching players take the hilariously broken and lopsided toys that SE provided its children and polish them to such a fine degree of luster that even the parent couldn't believe.

Of course, none of that would work in ARR, because the game isn't as poorly designed as XI was in that respect. Players, though, took the tools they were given, poorly designed or not, and made the best of them. That's usually what humans do, and I give everyone credit for it.

Edit: To further rebuff SD's line of thinking, however, support abilities would constitute what, exactly? Bosses resist nearly every status effect, which would make offensive support abilities useless within the current spectrum of the game, and even if you provide defensive support, you'll still have a useless job unless you grant it enough of one of the 3 core corners the triangle (duh, damage, healing or tanking) to survive in a raid setting, which, as we all understand from having it drilled into our brains time and again from this and countless other MMOs, is the entire basis of job balance in a game based nearly entirely around raiding.

[Elcura]

the point is that they can be successful, not that every implementation was.

No that's not the point. The point is not whether hybrids can be successful (I mean holy shit c'mon, C'MON) since we already know hybrids can be successful. The main issue is that hybrids are hard to balance since you either overtune or undertune, which causes various problems with balance and how that would work (if, rather) in XIV. You keep citing XI as evidence it can work, but no one gives a shit because it working in XI doesn't mean it will work in XIV.

You've been doing it wrong for like the last 2 pages. I don't even want to touch your original assessment of this conversation because it's still riddled with your delusions.

[solracht]

In fact its exactly what they are doing with Astrologian

You don't know anything about Astrologian aside from very vague skill descriptions from a couple interviews, but I'll humor you: switching between healing styles on a moderate/long cooldown is very, very different than switching between roles when outside of instances/combat. They're not anywhere near the same system but if you really think so then I don't really know what to tell you.

Either way, another ACN is still unlikely to happen anytime soon.

[Takiwaki]

You don't know anything about Astrologian aside from very vague skill descriptions from a couple interviews, but I'll humor you: switching between healing styles on a moderate/long cooldown is very, very different than switching between roles when outside of instances/combat. They're not anywhere near the same system but if you really think so then I don't really know what to tell you.

Either way, another ACN is still unlikely to happen anytime soon.

The premise is, allowing a job to tackle different roles, thats it. Not sure what the argument is about lol. It was an example of what is possible and blu being able to keep the essence of blu and still be viable in 14. I agreed no Another ACN will not happen like I said cus they are no longer doing classes. My main point was that there can be something more, that can work within the already existing foundation of the game. Why cant they make blu a JOB that can actually swap roles? cus of ACN not happening again? cmon =/

[Spider-Dan]

Uh oh, someone mentioned Lucavi's trigger word. Now we get to apply late-2004 XI mechanics to the entirety of the game's existence for a while. Arrowburn is so broken!

You keep citing XI as evidence it can work, but no one gives a shit because it working in XI doesn't mean it will work in XIV.

If only that stopped you from citing XI as evidence that it can't work.

[Rocl]

yo fuck penta thrust

[Lucavi]

Uh oh, someone mentioned Lucavi's trigger word. Now we get to apply late-2004 XI mechanics to the entirety of the game's existence for a while. Arrowburn is so broken!


If only that stopped you from citing XI as evidence that it can't work.

Makes sense. Can't attack the points, so attack the person. Sound tactic. Where have we seen this before?

[arus2001]

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am claiming every job was successful. THF was pretty clearly a non-hybrid DPS and (post-yokodama) was not particularly desired for anything besides TH. I don't deny that there were failed hybrids, as that's outside the point; the point is that they can be successful, not that every implementation was.

As for examples of successful hybrids (all 75 era):

- CoP/TAU NIN (tank/DPS)
- RDM (support/heal/debuff/CC, tank post-WoG)
- BRD (support/heal/CC)
- COR (support/DPS)

Now reevaluate your list and how reliant subjobs are. I'll give NIN a pass on Utsu since it comes with the job, but without Provoke, Berserk, and Double Attack, NIN tanking takes a dive. I'd also be remiss if I didn't point out the debuff enmity nerf again.

As for RDM, your post-WoG thing puzzles me. WotG? Not buying it, really. The class doesn't have the shield skill to make mitigation on that front a thing, and its evasion rating only got worse with the cap/ilvl increase. Stoneskin has not been buffed in any manner and Phalanx did not keep up with the times due to its formula. The debuff nerf applies to RDM, too, which largely leaves the class imitating a PLD very poorly if you're still set on tanking, with damage being the only real hate-grabber. Not a strength of RDM, especially if donning -DT stuff.

BRD isn't healing shit without a healing sub, nor should it be expected to be a party main heal. I could maybe make a case that subbed heals should've been a lot weaker than were in XI (in part, to SMN's benefit in role identity), but we got what we got. The minimal gearing demands for BRDs at least made it easy to carry a few cure potency items. The fact their sleeps were light just doubled the purpose of a light/apollo's staff. I won't argue BRD being the king of buffers in XI, but it wasn't because of /WHM.

COR is something I could say is, "getting warmer" but could you really call it popular? Ammo costs kept the population down. The roll system was clunky and made getting exactly what individual party members needed a chore. What rolls were considered good ebbed and waned with content, but they were no BRD as a support and second fiddle to RNG as a ranged physical DD. Which is kind of what some of us are getting at with the hybrid curse thing. People got by without CORs just fine, and if given a choice between their branches, went for the specialists most of the time.

Overall, I don't limit "tool kit" issues to RDM when discussing hybrids in XI. RDM just happened to be my main, and with that all the experiences that followed over a decade for better or worse. The class being there since FF1 may fuel the nostalgia argument a bit, but the whole "jack of all trades" not working isn't a problem exclusive to XI, either. At what ratio of Tank, DPS, and Support make a hybrid work? 33:33:33 is fail. 50:50:0 is fail. 10:80:10 is fail. 100:100:100 is broken. Same would apply to 100:100:0 or other variations. That's what we're trying to call out. Hybrids NEED to be a 100% in a specific role at any given time. Maybe a 95% if that other 5% is awesome. WoW tried to solve this with specs, I guess, but that's not my bag. XI never solved it, save maybe SCH and a well-geared GEO.