FFXIV 3.0 : Heavensward - Expansion Information and Discussion

[Thiefami]

I would like for support roles to be expanded. As much as I'd love to get away from classes , and it looks as if they are doing so, since they already exist I'd love to see a heavy support class and content to reflect a need for them.

Then allow the support class abilities to be used by most jobs. That way we are getting a push for more versatility within each job role. Or they could continue releasing jobs to the point they could make novelty jobs that you may not always need or use, but they are good to bring to certain events.

Which would mean actually having events to bring novelty jobs to, but I digress. I'd love more utility and versatile functions for jobs outside of healing/tank/dps. Possibly heavy enhancing and heavy enfeebling.

[Spider-Dan]

There's only so many ways you can say this. I'm sensing that everyone but one here understands this. No surprise there. Until a MMO company finds a way to introduce some other metric to raiding that doesn't involve damage/healing/tanking, this will always ring true.

So exactly what ratio of tank:DPS:support were BRD and COR, then? Because they were quite clearly successful. Wait, let me guess... this isn't XI so stop citing XI jobs!

You keep attempting to make grand declarations about MMOs as a whole, but when I point out that the other FF MMO DIRECTLY contradicts your claim, suddenly you cry foul and insist that we can't look at that MMO because it's not this one.

If you want to say that hybrids can't work in XIV because they aren't in XIV, then say that. But if you are going to continue to make blanket statements about hybrids in MMO design, I will continue to shove RDM/BRD/COR in your face until you explain them away.

[Skai]

But that's just one game. What other games have something similar? Rift?

[Spider-Dan]

Well, I'm sure you can argue that it hasn't been done in lots of other games, but that doesn't tell you anything about whether it can be done.
It clearly can be done, as this company has already done it in their previous MMO.

You could make the same objection about multiple classes/jobs on one character.

[Sho]

Spider-Dan has a point -- the difference between XI and XIV lies in job roles. It would be incorrect to think of BRD & COR as anything but a Support role. They aren't Healers, DPS, or Tanks. They are mainly Support. They sing a song or roll some dice and everyone is stronger for it. BRD had some very light healing roles while COR had some very light to medium DPS, but you didn't invite them to heal or DPS, you invited them to sing a song or roll some dice and make everyone else in the party stronger. No one ever talked about the "Holy Trinity" in XI because it never existed in that game, many jobs had many job roles, however minor or major. And those roles were expanded from Tank/DPS/Healer to Tank/DPS/Healer/Support/Enfeebler.

Support roles in XIV is much different when they've literally inserted the role into that of DPS (for BRD at least, and soon Machinist) and have given multiple jobs DoT/Enfeeblement abilities.

[Lucavi]

Possibly heavy enhancing and heavy enfeebling.

I hear this a lot, and to me, it always comes down to two things:

1) If you're enhancing without the job providing DPS/Healing, you must enhance enough to equal the DPS/healing lost by the slot.
2) If you're enfeebling (provided the encounter allows for enfeebling), again, the debuffs must equal the lost DPS/healing.

If these two requirements are not met, you're going to run into an issue of the class not being worth bringing compared to bringing more damage, more healing or more mitigation. This is enhanced in a game that has so many boss checks, and this buffing/enfeebling must be able to be activated quickly enough to allow for quick checks to be completed.

We'll use an easy encounter for an example. Take the heads of the 5-headed dragon in WoD. Blowing up each head to lower the damage on his super move is a DPS check. DPS too slow and heads survive and the damage eventually becomes unsurvivable. Simple stuff. If you're going to have a pure support job, you'd either have to have enough buffing to boost everyone else's DPS high enough to make up for the loss of DPS in the support class, or enough debuffing of the boss to negate the extra damage that losing the DPS check would entail.

If your solution to that is simply to "remove the checks", then you've removed one aspect of content so you can introduce another into the game, and that's walking a pretty dangerous path when you're talking about maintaining subs in a pretty popular MMO.

This answers Dan's inquiry about Brd and Cor: neither would survive in ARR unless their buffs followed the above. Really, the biggest answer to all of it is "XI ain't ARR". Things that worked there wouldn't work here, and there's already an entire forum section down there wishing that SE would just give XI the ARR graphical treatment and resurrect their game. Its not going to happen.

@Sho: Everyone here already knows that, and that's the point: its all 100% moot because THIS ISN'T XI. Why in the hell should someone in the ARR section have to answer a question about Brd and Cor being support in XI when this isn't XI? We're going around in circles, wasting time talking about things that are meaningless because the systems are entirely different. There was no raiding concept in XI. The engines were different. The programming was different. Bosses were fought differently. Enimity was handled differently. Modifiers were handled differently. None of what made a support in XI could exist standalone in ARR. Anyone who didn't immediately grasp that concept should have grasped it when they got their hands on the finished product of 50 Bard.

"Wait a minute. This isn't XI's Bard! It shoots a bow! It does high damage, equaling that of jobs that are dedicated DPS! Its song's really don't provide massive buffs that double or triple damage output! Its almost as if all that support damage of XI's bard was instead drawn into the 14 Bard itself! I wonder why Bard in FF14 feels and plays different than Bard in FF11? Its almost as if they're two separate..."

All this is turning into is another "I want FF14 to be FF11 reskinned" wishlist. Been there, done that. Guess what? It ain't happening.

[Sho]

Lucavi also has a point. The support roles of enfeebling really won't work in XIV, unless they make it integral to the fight mechanics of bosses from square one. That too is unlikely as long as debuffs have a short timer and full resists happen within 2-4 applications of said debuffs. When was the last time the Slow effect from Feint/Haymaker had any meaningful effect to any fight in XIV? When was the last time you've even heard of anyone using Feint/Haymaker? When was the last time Flash had any meaningful effect outside of maintaining hate? Why doesn't Paralyze exist in any skill, but in short duration potions only?

[Seha]

The best way to make hybrids or other half-classes is by the addition of uniqueness. They should have something that just isn't found anywhere else and is at the same time desirable. This however also depends on the game you're dealing with, and unfortunately for the way ARR is structured it seems very unlikely to be able to stray from the trinity of archetypes. Best you can hope for this game is a job that fits one of the 3 archetypes but has 2-3 abilities top that diverge, so like the way bardcher is.

[Lucavi]

Monk has debuffs as well, but like Sho said, how often do those debuffs matter? At least Dragon Kick lowers magic damage which can help teams survive some boss HP checks by mitigating some damage, but yeah, I doubt we'll ever hit a point where a boss "readies XXX" and then "is paralyzed".

...Woulda been nice during Twintania and Death Sentence.

[Niiro]

Support effects in XIV are essentially limited to

-increasing party damage dealt (TA, Foe)
-decreasing party damage taken (Storm, DK, Halone, Virus, Mantra kinda)
-recovering MP/TP (Goad, Paeon/Ballad)
-honorable mention to selene buffs (they still need to fix TP tho)

There's no room for traditional XI enfeebs (para, slow, grav, bind, sleep, etc) as they have no place in a game where mobs follow highly scripted patterns.

[Kaslo]

I look forward to Sho telling everyone they have a point

[Spider-Dan]

1) If you're enhancing without the job providing DPS/Healing, you must enhance enough to equal the DPS/healing lost by the slot.
2) If you're enfeebling (provided the encounter allows for enfeebling), again, the debuffs must equal the lost DPS/healing.

[...]

This answers Dan's inquiry about Brd and Cor: neither would survive in ARR unless their buffs followed the above.

So basically, unless their buffs worked as they did in XI (where said buffs more than justified excluding a DPS in that slot). A awful lot of words to state the obvious: BRD and COR's buffs were good enough to make them successful.

Really, the biggest answer to all of it is "XI ain't ARR". Things that worked there wouldn't work here,

On what basis do you claim that a support job with equivalent DPS increase to, say, XI BRD "would not work" in XIV?

and there's already an entire forum section down there wishing that SE would just give XI the ARR graphical treatment and resurrect their game. Its not going to happen.

Similarly, there's a small-but-determined group of XI haters that love to go around this section insisting that SE pull ideas from every other MMO but start shrieking every time someone mentions pulling ideas from SE's previous MMO (the one that's made them more money than any other FF). Or are you done extolling the virtues of Shadow Priests and Chloromancers?

[Lucavi]

I'll never be done extolling the virtues of shadow priests and chloromancers.

Ever. Jobs done right are jobs done right.

[Spider-Dan]

Jobs done right are jobs done right.

And yet when I bring up XI BRD and COR, that's a totally different game, bro!

Like I said, you're perfectly happy citing anything but XI for the topic of things to add, and you're perfectly happy citing XI for the topic of things not to do. It's only when the discussion turns to things that worked well in XI that suddenly we shouldn't compare other MMOs to this one and why do you want XI HD?

Some consistency, please.

[arus2001]

There's no room for traditional XI enfeebs (para, slow, grav, bind, sleep, etc) as they have no place in a game where mobs follow highly scripted patterns.

This is part of the problem, really. I feel like fights should be less about memorizing a specific enemy choreography and being more aware about their specific attacks and combinations thereof they could employ. Mob moves still justifiably need cooldowns, or locks so other abilities can't be triggered while certain ones are in play. So, when players find out the Wipe Your Alliance move has a 3 minute cooldown, you're going to want to start holding the respective counters relative to your class' cooldowns. It could come at the 3m mark, or RNG could have it happen at 5m.

I'm also not much a fan of DPS checks or enrages, but can acknowledge removing them can lead to some cheesy tactics if there's not something else like a hard timer to a battlefield. Part of me feels like loot quantity/quality could maybe suffer a bit if specific quota aren't meant, but this is really just revisiting endgame elitism and the whole "READ THE FUCKING GUIDE!" problem that stagnates creativity once first clears and such are publicized. I also really would hate to see XIV hit the point where you must absolutely use third-party add-ons to function in more difficult encounters. Whether some like it or not, not everyone likes using such things, nor does everyone know where they exist or even where to get them safely.

Suppose part of me would be willing to overlook all this if alternative progression paths were a thing and reasonable. Why the pride of doing some things the play should hopefully enjoy have been elevated over others in MMOs, I'll never really understand. Then again, maybe that's just art imitating life with how the middle class is basically disappearing.

[Sho]

I look forward to Sho telling everyone they have a point

You too have a point insofar that I make it a point to point out other people's points.

:kappa:

[Lucavi]

And yet when I bring up XI BRD and COR, that's a totally different game, bro!

Not quite, my stubborn friend. I quote those because they use entirely different systems than your "support" system. Converting damage into healing -can- work in a raid setting in which a holy trinity is established. Spriest and Chloro can work in ARR with tweaks. Your XI Brd and Cor cannot.

That you cannot see this with your own eyes is your own fault, not mine.

[Shenrien]

-honorable mention to selene buffs (they still need to fix TP tho)

They should just do away with the TP system, replace it with the old stamina and that is your sprint. They could make it work in the ways D2 had their stamina system setup. You can choose to sprint when you choose to and it will deplete the meter steadily and then when you're out of combat you'll slowly regenerate your meter, that way for raid setting you can't just sprint whenever you want and it would be another potential resource to manage for players.

Having a resource that determines how much long you can trigger weapon skills is dumb. If someone would be upset with them doing that, then rename class specific attacks as techniques and cross class abilities can be referenced as talents then.

[Lucavi]

I don't think we need stamina either. Why can't GCDs be the sole determiner of the usability of an ability? Keep combos and just let the GCD and combo potential reflect how often you want someone using a particular move. TP doesn't really add depth to the system, as you can accomplish the same thing with GCDs.

[Spider-Dan]

I quote those because they use entirely different systems than your "support" system. Converting damage into healing -can- work in a raid setting in which a holy trinity is established. Spriest and Chloro can work in ARR with tweaks. Your XI Brd and Cor cannot.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why a BRD/COR with a group damage boost enough to make up for 1 DPS slot won't work in this game:

1) If you're enhancing without the job providing DPS/Healing, you must enhance enough to equal the DPS/healing lost by the slot.

XI BRD and/or COR did enhance enough to equal the DPS lost by the slot. Q.E.D.