FFXIV 3.0 : Heavensward - Expansion Information and Discussion

[Spider-Dan]

Then maybe a better solution would be not shit itemization/lazywayout MMO I.lv progression.

No? I'll go sit on my lawn with my cane then.

Funny you mention that, because "the usual suspects" who are currently arguing against weekly caps and "backward progression" would start flipping over tables if anyone mentioned XI's gear paradigm.

"We want modern MMO vertical gear progression!"
"We don't want soul-crushing RNG on drop rates!"
"But we also don't want any artificial limitations on how quickly the game will spoonfeed us drops!"

It's a waste of time to just ask for faster gearing. You might as well ask for a cheaper monthly subscription rate, for all the good it does.

[Deadgye]

I can't tell if you're talking to me (suppose you are) but if you are then...I've already answered that? Like I said, lots of "unable to read" going around.

The person who I quoted was Niiro. I then simply made a second post instead of editing the first one since you had already responded to it.

[Niiro]

And I didn't respond because Deadgye thinks that having access to CT gear at the same time coil launches is pointless because people who do coil don't do CT.

So yea, not gonna bother with that "logic".

[Spider-Dan]

CT isn't targeted at people who are clearing coil. This shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

[Elcura]

Edit: Boops

[Elcura]

The person who I quoted was Niiro. I then simply made a second post instead of editing the first one since you had already responded to it.

Huh? Oh...well OK.

Funny you mention that, because "the usual suspects" who are currently arguing against weekly caps and "backward progression" would start flipping over tables if anyone mentioned XI's gear paradigm.

Funny that when Karbuncle mentions better itemization you mention XI. XI has nothing to do with good (or even better) itemization.

CT isn't targeted at people who are clearing coil. This shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

And yet, it would still be useful for them.

[Niiro]

Don't bother man, just don't.

People who do coil just brute force their way thru all 4 turns in week 1 using crafted gear and gear from the prior patch only, everyone else does CT.

Everyone falls into one of those two categories.

[Deadgye]

And I didn't respond because Deadgye thinks that having access to CT gear at the same time coil launches is pointless because people who do coil don't do CT.

So yea, not gonna bother with that "logic".

Did you make up some weird reasoning and then pretend I said it? Because that's what it looks like you're doing. Scrubs who can't clear coil even with CT gear is the group of people I specified, the primary target audience for CT gear. These people can't clear coil even with CT gear. Why exactly do you think CT being released before coil would make a difference for them?

[Niiro]

I never said it would make a difference for people who can't clear coil period.

It would make the gear useful for progression for people who can clear coil.

Thus, making the gear useful and not backwards progression junk.

[Niiro]

Now I'm kind of mad at myself that I'm still entertaining this stupidity.

[Deadgye]

I never said it would make a difference for people who can't clear coil period.

That's some pretty hard backpedaling.

Anyway, the people that "CT is for" aren't the type of people who can even function in coil. CT coming out before would be exactly the same as CT coming out after, for them.

No, it would not.

[Niiro]

You're the one insisting on these completely separate, disparate breeds of player, not me.

If you wanna be right in your own head, that's fine by me.

[Spider-Dan]

I never said it would make a difference for people who can't clear coil period.

It would make the gear useful for progression for people who can clear coil.

Thus, making the gear useful and not backwards progression junk.

It would only be useful for coil groups in that it mitigates the restriction of the weekly tome cap in increasing their iLVL (i.e. "I want to gear up faster"). They would do CT for i120, beat coil for i130 (or upgrade mats), then immediately throw the CT gear in the trash. Not exactly the most compelling improvement.

Since 2.2, the primary purpose of CT is not the gear it drops; this should be obvious, as the majority of people running CT are not doing so for gear drops. CT is primarily a vehicle for providing upgrade mats for people who can't clear coil, and it also happens to drop sidegrade i120/glamour gear.

[Deadgye]

You're the one insisting on these completely separate, disparate breeds of player, not me.

If you wanna be right in your own head, that's fine by me.

Yet you acknowledged that grouping of players only but a few posts above.

I never said it would make a difference for people who can't clear coil period.

Why are you even arguing against what I said? You've contradicted every single one you've done against it.

[Kaslo]

It would only be useful for coil groups in that it mitigates the restriction of the weekly tome cap in increasing their iLVL (i.e. "I want to gear up faster"). They would do CT for i120, beat coil for i130 (or upgrade mats), then immediately throw the CT gear in the trash. Not exactly the most compelling improvement.

Since 2.2, the primary purpose of CT is not the gear it drops; this should be obvious, as the majority of people running CT are not doing so for gear drops. CT is primarily a vehicle for providing upgrade mats for people who can't clear coil, and it also happens to drop sidegrade i120/glamour gear.

You mean 2.35ish

[Niiro]

the primary purpose of CT is not the gear it drops; this should be obvious, as the majority of people running CT are not doing so for gear drops. CT is primarily a vehicle for providing upgrade mats

And this is what you're defending, even though it's undermined entirely by the presence of hunts which allowed access to sands and twines long before CT.

So it's not for gear, and it's late to the party for getting upgrade mats, but it's still well designed and implemented apparently.

[Kaslo]

Oh and thinking, the best thing they could have done was allow ST/WoD gear to upgrade using the same upgrade materials, then there would be three options instead of two at the highest ilvl.

[Lyall]

Saving poetics gave you just over what you needed to kit out a job entirely in 120 gear. I think there was enough to buy a couple of accessories, too, before WoD got coat/twine. WoD gear exists to be either slotted into weak slots or put on an alt job or collected for glamour, while twins/coats are now free without having to grind hunts for them if you can't do coil.

Again, it might seem hard to believe, but there's an entire swath of people who said "Welp, fuck hunts" once they started being obliterated in seconds. CT has, in my case, always been for gearing side jobs and upgrading token gear because my schedule doesn't lend itself to hunting or raiding. And I know a fair few folks who are in the same boat as I am.

[Niiro]

And how would any of that have been different if the gear was also made useful for people who do coil?

[Lyall]

And how would any of that have been different if the gear was also made useful for people who do coil?

Because then I would have been done with 2.4's content before 2.5 came out and had nothing in it, hypothetically speaking. As it stands right now, it takes six weeks to get enough twine to fully upgrade left side. It took four to do right side, plus an extra for whatever. This extends/delays the lifespan of the content to the folks on the back-end. Yes, it fucks the coil-running folks already decked out in 130 gear before WoD game out. But casuals are happy being late to the party, I think. If this all landed at once, everybody is done gearing in 2 months and you're just waiting another four months for new stuff.

I do think upgrading different sets of gear would be smarter, but it doesn't alleviate needing to spread out when they all hit the community. Not to mention how bad that fucks crafters - If WoD and Coil dropped in the same patch, what do crafters make? Glamour gear for four-star 110 stuff that's beyond useless from the door? If it's better than WoD equipment with melds, your raiders won't use WoD gear. If it's not better, well... Why bother?

It gets messy. Implementation as it is now isn't ideal, but it's not broken for anyone but the highest-achievers. Someone's gotta get left in the cold, and that's always going to be the guys at the top of the progression.