FFXIV 3.0 : Heavensward - Expansion Information and Discussion

[Spider-Dan]

And this is what you're defending, even though it's undermined entirely by the presence of hunts which allowed access to sands and twines long before CT.

Does the existence of soldiery mats on the auction house "undermine" the existence of the same mats at the token vendor?
Does the existence of moonstones at the GC supplier "undermine" the existence of them as an Ixali quest reward?
Apparently so!

Hunts and CT are two very different events.

[Niiro]

If your argument in defense of the way they have done things is that they are successful at stretching already thin content further, then I have nothing more to argue.

.

[Lucavi]

It gets messy. Implementation as it is now isn't ideal, but it's not broken for anyone but the highest-achievers. Someone's gotta get left in the cold, and that's always going to be the guys at the top of the progression.

This is true because catering to the smallest numbers exclusively have never been a ticket to profitability or sustainability. It'd be one thing if everyone at every fanfest was only a hardcore raider, but they aren't. Its a mix, and catering to a mix is the way to go if you wanna actually make money on your game.

[Niiro]

Does the existence of soldiery mats on the auction house "undermine" the existence of the same mats at the token vendor?
Does the existence of moonstones at the GC supplier "undermine" the existence of them as an Ixali quest reward?
Apparently so!

Hunts and CT are two very different events.

You're not even trying to make points any more, are you.

[Lyall]

.

WoD isn't any thinner than Coil, strictly speaking. Fuck, Coil might be thinner. You have a small chance of seeing what you want in each encounter, and you're locked afterwards. WoD can at least guarantee you a drop in a pre-made or the weekly, and you can repeat farm it.

[Niiro]

I've said everything I can at this point.

[Daemonxel]

What about a system that allows you to control your gear. IE: base armor drops and you can upgrade it like relics (but without the long ass grind) example you get gear from coil 110 st comes and gear dross there at 100 but you can say blend the 2 together and make a new piece that would be say 115. It would add a new element and system to master in the game but would be fun and cater to individuality

[Karbuncle]

I'm with Niiro here.

Right now, the ST-type raids are pretty much just used to gear up alt jobs a bit quicker, and for the upgrade mats. Now, I don't know about you, but devoting all this time to an event that has to take up about as much, if not more, development time as Coil just for gearing alt-jobs seems a little bit silly. Now, I'd be lying if i said I didn't enjoy that I can upgrade my PLD/SMN/SCH a little faster now, but should that be all that event is good for? Gearing up jobs I'll likely never play until the next I.lv replaces their gear and I start gearing it up with that? I mean, for example, I got my SCH a bunch of WHM CT gear, but, I'm slowly replacing it with WoD gear despite never really using te CT gear to begin with.

Someone mentioned that they should have allowed us to upgrade WoD gear to 130, giving us 3 Progression paths to 130 instead of 2. Frankly, I agree with this. This is a wonderful idea. i mean, Guild Wars 2 has I think like 8 Different high tier sets (Each having 3 stats, crit rate/crit damage/DoT damage/acc/atk/etcetcetc)? It still uses a kinda-I.lv Progression, I don't think XIV would fall apart if they made it WoD upgradeable the same way Ironworks is.

If they're afraid people will wine about Coil gear not being good enough, they should actually look at what stats a job values and make coil gear revolve around those stats. Making coil gear the obvious "Best in slot" and the other gear acceptable/good I.level alternatives. Meaning even people with the 130 from WoD/Ironworks will still want coil gear for the BiS pieces. It may not matter for all the casuals, but since when have casuals ever cared about BiS?

But you know. Laziness or something.

[ronin sparthos]

Except the WOD gear isn't outdated for casuals. FCOB is off the table for all but the top and many are still doing primal EX or SCOB clears. So you've got 120 WoD crud, 130 upgrades off poetics, Relic grindage, ST upgrade drops and a mix of melded/EX drops making up the large majority of casual grind time. Toss in Gold Saucer events and a casual players plate is pretty full.

(It'd have been nice if WoD drops got taken up to i125 but alas it'll be going right in the bin soon.)

FCOB won't even be a thing for your average player until well near Heavensward if the expansion doesn't completely invalidate Coil completely via new drops / catchup gear.

Hunts are also a thing for casual play but fuck Hunts. Fuck them right in the Howling Eye.

[Karbuncle]

Except the WOD gear isn't outdated for casuals.

it is for those who beat coil, yah? why preemptively screw those people when, if released first in the cycles, they would get every benefit from it casuals do?

But I do disagree a bit with the statement. I don't hardcore like I used too, and I know I've gotten pretty casual. WoD gear was useless for my Main, I already have full 120 by the time it came out, and thats of course, just following the weekly caps. If you're going to argue there are people who don't keep up with weekly caps and would need WoD gear for their main, then you're hitting the opposite end of the "Super minority" spectrum (One end being Hard-core world-first raiders, and the other being people who long in so little they cant even cap their weekly tomes), and thus, appealing to them would be as silly as appealing to those hardest of hard cores. Though, I mean to ask how is it not obsolete to them, of course aside from a few BiS pieces, which again, casuals don't care about. I did mention Alt jobs already though too. So IDK

I just feel like if they swapped the schedules, the only thing that would change is the world firsts would get the benefit of WoD for their mains, as oppose to it being for vanity, lulz, or the ones in their group who aren't DRGs. Everyone would then get the benefit of the event. Casuals would get the same benefits from it as they do now, no? So what negative impacts are there?

As for the upgrade mats, I do agree those are really the biggest draw for a lot of players.. cause as your final line said, f**k hunts ._.

[Spider-Dan]

it is for those who beat coil, yah? why preemptively screw those people when, if released first in the cycles, they would get every benefit from it casuals do?

The only "benefit" that coil raiders would get from moving CT to even patches is that they would be able to burn through coil more quickly, ostensibly so they can start complaining about "nothing to do but log in once a week and clear coil in 90 minutes" earlier (see: this thread).

I just feel like if they swapped the schedules, the only thing that would change is the world firsts would get the benefit of WoD for their mains, as oppose to it being for vanity, lulz, or the ones in their group who aren't DRGs. Everyone would then get the benefit of the event. Casuals would get the same benefits from it as they do now, no? So what negative impacts are there?

The negative impacts would be the same as doubling the weekly token cap, or doubling the amount of drops per coil clear.

Unless you push left-side tome armor release back to odd-numbered patches (or some other solution to make CT armor a zero-sum move compared to the status quo), the real effect of releasing CT early is to increase complaining about "nothing to do" and to drive down interest in the game. No matter how much hardcore players want to complain about content gates artificially propping up the game, the bottom line is that there has to be something that keeps the no-lifers from burning through entire patches in 2 weeks.

Any realistic solution to the "problem" of CT that involves moving it forward needs to include moving something else back. Otherwise, like I said, you might as well be asking for lower subscription pricing.

[Zzsark]

You're assuming that nothing else can be changed then? That the only options are what's already on the table. That's pretty narrow minded.

If an expansion isn't the perfect time to revamp these systems (expand upon them where needed) so that the content is at the bare minimum still relevant to 100% of the player base (not saying everyone has to like it) then I don't know what is.

[Ramset]

You're assuming that nothing else can be changed then? That the only options are what's already on the table. That's pretty narrow minded.

If an expansion isn't the perfect time to revamp these systems (expand upon them where needed) so that the content is at the bare minimum still relevant to 100% of the player base (not saying everyone has to like it) then I don't know what is.

This has been problem with so many points in this thread is that they're based on the assumption that things aren't going to change. If we had bigger ilvl gaps, and difficulty was a lot higher to the point that even the hardcore a needed the increased ilvl then they wouldn't be "burning through" this content.

Also I'd like so say that I've seen come contradictory statements. Someone or multiple people mentioned (forgive me there were a lot of posts in between) that people who do CT don't care about coil, and someone else also mentioned that a majority of the players are still stuck on Second Coil...then why the fuck does anyone care to argue that CT content helps casual players because they get better gear? That's a player skill problem, not a system design issue. Throwing a bunch of gear at players aren't going to help them clearer coil faster. The good players will still clear coil, the bad players still won't clear coil. If the "majority" still have trouble with coil...gear isn't going to help them much at this point.

However, there are alot of system design issues here. Such as...designing the game to almost require static groups. Raid lockouts prevent more skilled players from helping out other because then they won't get loot, and everyone wants the loot.

The underlying issue here is poor design. As has been said by myself, Zzark, Niiro (in some ways), and others is that moving FORWARD changes need to be made to content design and progression. Obviously not everyone can be pleased, but I believe there is room for significant improvement.

[Kaslo]

You're assuming that nothing else can be changed then? That the only options are what's already on the table. That's pretty narrow minded.

If an expansion isn't the perfect time to revamp these systems (expand upon them where needed) so that the content is at the bare minimum still relevant to 100% of the player base (not saying everyone has to like it) then I don't know what is.

Like I said, best thing they could have done was make CT gear upgradable to coil-tier with mats as well.

[Spider-Dan]

This has been problem with so many points in this thread is that they're based on the assumption that things aren't going to change.

Things can change. But what's not going to change is SE's position on gear progression speed; that's a position that has a direct impact on their subscription base.

Again, I don't have a problem with shuffling content around, but nearly every proponent of moving CT forward doesn't want to shuffle (read: give-and-take) content... they just want to move content forward so they can be finished earlier. That request is too transparently lazy to merit a dev response.

Also I'd like so say that I've seen come contradictory statements. Someone or multiple people mentioned (forgive me there were a lot of posts in between) that people who do CT don't care about coil, and someone else also mentioned that a majority of the players are still stuck on Second Coil...then why the fuck does anyone care to argue that CT content helps casual players because they get better gear?

1) better gear still helps you on things that are not coil (e.g. EX primals)
2) better gear helps people who do care about coil (but can't progress) advance in coil

That's a player skill problem, not a system design issue. Throwing a bunch of gear at players aren't going to help them clearer coil faster.

Actually, yes; yes, it does. Otherwise, the Echo would be a complete waste.

[Ramset]

Things can change. But what's not going to change is SE's position on gear progression speed; that's a position that has a direct impact on their subscription base.

Tell us again about your job at Square Enix. Gear progression as it exists in 2.0 was a coincidence as well as anyone from outside the company can see it. CT was delayed, upgrade mats were added well after the fact based on post-analysis and player request. Had things been implemented as originally intended progression could have been totally different.

Again, I don't have a problem with shuffling content around, but nearly every proponent of moving CT forward doesn't want to shuffle (read: give-and-take) content... they just want to move content forward so they can be finished earlier. That request is too transparently lazy to merit a dev response.

Who is "they"? And who has said that "they" want to finish earlier? The only comments I saw were about better balancing progression.

1) better gear still helps you on things that are not coil (e.g. EX primals)
2) better gear helps people who do care about coil (but can't progress) advance in coil

Actually, yes; yes, it does. Otherwise, the Echo would be a complete waste.

All of that would be well and good, IF the GEAR that dropped from CT raids wasn't lower than max ilvl. It's backwards progression in most cases, at best a side grade, in very few cases (bard) does a lower ilvl piece contend for BiS. Gear is gear, but better gear can be obtained through other means before even starting CT/ST/WoD. In most cases "better" doesn't even apply.

Since 2.2, the primary purpose of CT is not the gear it drops; this should be obvious, as the majority of people running CT are not doing so for gear drops. CT is primarily a vehicle for providing upgrade mats for people who can't clear coil, and it also happens to drop sidegrade i120/glamour gear.

Here you are almost contradicting your above statements, and (seemingly) operating under the false pretense that CT was originally implemented for the purpose of catch-up. NOW it's become an accessibility thing, but even on launch it doesn't provide much benefit to people who still can't clear coil. Even worse, left side upgrade mats aren't added to 24 man raid until WEEKS after it comes out, thus providing even less initial benefit. Moving on your your Echo point, Echo is added to Coil on the NEXT installment of Coil and people STILL can't beat the content. We're talking players that are very easily ilvl 130 right now and struggling with Echo. Gear is not going to help those players.

-------------

I honestly don't understand what your argument is here. I'm so beyond arguing the merits of CT or why they exist as they do now because it's moot, the past is the past. We're looking towards the future here.

Are you trying to contend that the system as it is now works perfectly and doesn't need to be changed? If that's the case then I won't bother debating with you anymore because we will never agree.

My bottom line argument: The current systems of progression in place are not beneficial to the greater populace and changes should be made in Heavensward.

[SamanosukeShiva]

Honestly, I dd WoD in grand total of 2 times so far, it's pointless for me to do it at all. Ok cool saw the boss, i dont ever wanna go in there again, no incentive. When WoD came out I was already geared/T13 cleared. The moment i cleared T13, I also stopped caring about capping tomes too, havent done any dungeon whatsoever since, heck I havent even unlocked the new dungeons. Log in once a week, clear coil, log off for the rest. And the only times I do gold saucer is when I'm waiting for the raid group to get ready. If it doesn't involve killing raid boss, i pretty much dont do it, shits boring, seriously.

endgamelyfe

[Spider-Dan]

Gear progression as it exists in 2.0 was a coincidence as well as anyone from outside the company can see it. CT was delayed, upgrade mats were added well after the fact based on post-analysis and player request. Had things been implemented as originally intended progression could have been totally different.

You have no idea what the "original intention" was, and any claim to that effect is pure speculation. This is the way they are; if they intended it to be different, it would be different.

Who is "they"? And who has said that "they" want to finish earlier? The only comments I saw were about better balancing progression.

One example:

CT gear should have been available to help clear coil in order to help get coil drops and upgrade items.

i.e. CT gear should be available at start to help me gear up faster, to clear coil faster, to be finished faster

All of that would be well and good, IF the GEAR that dropped from CT raids wasn't lower than max ilvl. It's backwards progression in most cases, at best a side grade, in very few cases (bard) does a lower ilvl piece contend for BiS.

Gear drops are the secondary purpose of CT. Upgrade mats for those who don't do coil (and don't like hunts) is the main draw.

People who aren't doing coil have ZERO max iLVL armor or accessories at CT patch releases. Therefore, for those people, post-Labyrinth CT (at release) is not "backwards progression"; it is entirely itemization upgrades/sidegrades (based on secondary stats) or straight iLVL upgrade (via upgrade mats).

Here you are almost contradicting your above statements, and (seemingly) operating under the false pretense that CT was originally implemented for the purpose of catch-up. NOW it's become an accessibility thing, but even on launch it doesn't provide much benefit to people who still can't clear coil. Even worse, left side upgrade mats aren't added to 24 man raid until WEEKS after it comes out, thus providing even less initial benefit. Moving on your your Echo point, Echo is added to Coil on the NEXT installment of Coil and people STILL can't beat the content. We're talking players that are very easily ilvl 130 right now and struggling with Echo. Gear is not going to help those players.

First off, I'm discussing what it is now, not what it hypothetically was "intended for" over a year ago. Second, you didn't even have time for one full right-side upgrade (from CT) before twine was added to the pool, so that is a moot point. Third, if gear doesn't help, then Echo wouldn't help either, as Echo doesn't do anything that gear wouldn't; if what you are saying were accurate, anyone who couldn't beat BCoB at ~i90 after the first round of nerfs/Echo (High Voltage, etc.) would have no better chance at beating it at i130 with 15% echo. That's just ridiculous.

Are you trying to contend that the system as it is now works perfectly and doesn't need to be changed?

No, I'm saying that the current system works better than the naked loot grabs being suggested as a replacement.

[arus2001]

It may not matter for all the casuals, but since when have casuals ever cared about BiS?

I can't really agree with this, but this might just be the hardcore casual in me talking. Basically, not playing as often or taking the game as "seriously" doesn't inhibit someone from still wanting good gear or being their personal best. Overall, I'm not a fan of dailies (or lack of rollover), harsh gating (especially as a multi-class game), and strongly feel crafting suffers considerably to the Raid or GTFO mentality that is the current dungeon running paradigm of XIV. But that'll never change since Yoshi is a self-admitted old-schooler, nevermind hardcore wailing from the outside for deviating from what the past decade+ has conditioned people into believing.

[Ramset]

*snip*

I give up, dance around the subject, edit your posts more to say entirely different things, make assumptions... there's no point in arguing with you anymore. Go run CT or something for no reason.