GamerGate thread

[Xajii]

Compared to the rest of the industry, I'd say Sqeenix is pretty solid in that department.

Compared to the "ideal" maybe not but I'll grade them on a curve under the circumstances.

Well it's important to split west vs east in this scenario because to be honest Japan is a ridiculously sexist environment overall. As far as Japanese game devs go you might as well cosnider Sqenix SJW tier of feminism.

[Lyall]

I would just like to point out, in case it hasn't been brought up, that it could have been a situation where the game had already been into development and the company had invested time and effort into creating with a character's gender in mind. If that was the case, then going back and reworking a large portion of the game well into the process is likely going to be a huge cost.

I'm all for making games a little less male skewed in terms of character's gender, but it has to happen from the onset of the game. Some of these companies use a 2-3 year time frame to create games. To propose a gender change even a year into the process would likely cost a huge amount of money. It's not like they can just remodel a female/male model and throw it on the same rig and it'll work.

You're absolutely right, and according to the developer that was their goal from the start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembe...29#Development

Development of the game began in 2008 when the company was formed.[8] Initially called Adrift,[9] the original concept of the game was a world flooded from global warming, with a key gameplay mechanic being the player character using jetskis to navigate a coastal city. Later, the Dontnod team thought up the concept of memory as a central theme and redesigned the game accordingly, although the game's director Jean-Max Moris was reluctant to set the game in Paris since the studio was based there.[10] In interviews, Moris said that the game's theme was inspired by the social network sites that abound in the modern world, citing Facebook, Tumblr and Twitter as examples.[8][11] He said that the game, while some elements looked fantastical, was grounded in the real world in terms of how social networking might evolve over the coming decades.[11] One of the literary works referenced in the game is George Orwell's novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, though Moris stated that he did not want the game to portray any kind of intrusive message or meaning.[12]

When asked in an interview with Penny Arcade Report why he made Nilin, Remember Me '​s protagonist, a woman, Moris said that part of his reason was that it "felt right from the beginning". He also stated that he wanted a game in the cyberpunk genre that was more about "emotion, intimacy, identity, and the way technology would intersect those", so it made more sense for the player character to be a woman.

Remember Me came out in 2013, while the finalized version of the concept was cemented in 2010. You can't throw away three years of development and intention because a company wants a bald space marine guy for the lead role.

The game was originally being co-developed by Dontnod and Sony exclusively for the PlayStation 3 under the Adrift title, beginning full development in February 2010.[14] Following creative disagreements between Dontnod and Sony, and the subsequent cancellation of the project in February 2011 for unrelated reasons,[15] Capcom purchased the IP and provided funding for the project as a multi-platform title.[16] The game was officially revealed at the 2012 Gamescom event with an official trailer and gameplay demonstration.

Looks like a rough development process all around, though.

[Charismatic]

Well it's important to split west vs east in this scenario because to be honest Japan is a ridiculously sexist environment overall. As far as Japanese game devs go you might as well cosnider Sqenix SJW tier of feminism.

Except not really, as far as this subject goes.
While you can say that Japan is ridiculously sexist... female lead characters aren't as uncommon over there as they are here in general.

[RKenshin]

Definitely is something ironic about Squeenix' motivations being praised, even though we all know (?) their acceptance of female leads has nothing to really do with fighting sexism/equal rights.

Most games are made for men -> most women are not interested in these games -> most gamers are men -> games for women don't sell well -> games for women aren't made -> women don't get into games ->

Make more games for women, and more women will start playing games. Seems pretty simple to me.

There are plenty of games 'made for women' and/or in the middle ground, the problem is that even games that meet that criteria do not attract much of the female market.

Women make up 50% of the entire market. They have just as much opportunity to influence it through buying power as men do.

If they all started consuming these games in massive numbers, you can bet your ass that more of them would be made - but they're not, and thus there is no logical ground to assume that female interest in video games is exclusively due to not having enough of 'their games.' Again, they're not even consuming the content directly appealing to them right now (though it is trending upward, but again is still massively behind).

You're right. Why did we even move on to having female actresses in movies? We should have just had men play all the female roles like in the olden days.

Oh right, we realised it was sexist.

.... women began having roles/starring in 'plays/entertainment' long before anyone gave three shits about whether something was sexist.

In fact, most of the portrayal of women in early movies was arguably sexist and again, it was done because it generated money. Where are you getting the idea that women started appearing in movies because of some equal rights hodgepog as opposed to it being again about money?

It's also a terrible comparison, because men don't outnumber women in their movie consumption by some ridiculous ratio.

Unintentional sexism is still sexism.

Then every single product or service that markets and/or designs their products to appeal to the desires of a target audience that just happens to be mostly X gender/race/preference is now sexist/racist/homophobic.

So, what good does essentially calling everything sexist/racist and hopeless do to help legitimize the real issues of sexism again? Because I'm pretty sure that painting everything with such a broad brush just makes less people take it seriously and want to care/sympathize.

[Lyall]

Most games are made for men -> most women are not interested in these games -> most gamers are men -> games for women don't sell well -> games for women aren't made -> women don't get into games ->

Make more games for women, and more women will start playing games. Seems pretty simple to me.

Can you please define "Games for women" please? I wasn't aware that some games are specifically for one gender or the other. Are you implying that the Mario Bros. franchise or the Legend of Zelda are for men because they star men? That Pokemon is for boys because they originally featured only playable males?

[Vandalhart]

Clearly they need to have fancy gem or candy swapping functionality if they're meant for women!

I think that's part of the problem. Games are games. They may be made to capture a certain audience, but in the end, anyone can play them. Whether or not the enjoy them is another point all together.

[Gokku]

I too am curious what is considered a game for women?
How are you judging this unbiased? Or what are the conditions to meet?

Please give multiple actual examples of games for Girls?

[Joyo]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-protagonists

"Games with a female-only protagonist got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 per cent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually," Zatkin concluded.

Did everyone miss that part?
Seems pretty obvious to me why games with female leads sell less than male only.
Remember Me sold like shit because it was a bad game.

[Gokku]

Male-only hero games sold 25 per cent better than those with an optional female hero, and 75 per cent better than whose with a female-only hero.

It also noted that this may be based off of marketing but that ignores gameplay ala demons souls. Where the game got little to no marketing and has lead to being a hit with the gaming community. Marketing alone should not and does not make it sexist to say a game won't sell without solid characters gameplay and PR.

[Lyall]

Spending money doesn't always make money.

http://gamerant.com/square-enix-tomb-raider-sales-loss/

Square anticipated selling 14.9 million retail games in North America and Europe between September 2012 and the end of March 2013. Within that period, however, Sleeping Dogs sold 1.75 million units, Hitman: Absolution garrotted 3.6 million, and Tomb Raider accounted for 3.8 million — each worldwide! Adding up to 8.75 million sales (and again, worldwide), and comprising Square’s only significant September-March releases for North American and European audiences, the dissonance between prediction and fruition is “extraordinary” in every sense of the word.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/03/27/anal...es-to-succeed/

Square-Enix posted a grim financial revision yesterday, which caused president Yoichi Wada to stand down. The company then called Tomb Raider a failure, despite selling 3.4 million units in just four weeks. Numbers like these are often not enough to cover triple-a development costs, one analyst has said.

“Square Enix’s franchises are well established and require ever-higher production budgets to match and surpass past performance. The latest Hitman and Tomb Raider sold in the three million unit range and got Metacritic ratings above 8.

“Those numbers would rate as successful for JRPGs that earn more from vendors as exclusives and have manageable budgets. But for games with development budgets approaching $100 million to be truly profitable, ratings have to be above 8.5 and sales need to be in the five to ten million unit range.”

There's a precedent of female-driven games not selling as well as their male-counterparts; There's also few enough of them that it stands out a lot more. Tomb Raider took more than a full year to become profitable, and that was with a huge franchise history behind it and a huge amount of coverage at E3 and beyond focusing on the reboot.

[Joyo]

Of course spending more money doesnt always make you more money but marketing is a huge reason a game like CoD sells so much. If you dont give the same support to other games you can't expect similar sales numbers.
And while Tomb Raider is a huge franchise lets not forget there is a reason why it got a reboot and thats because the others games werent really that good anymore. You can't compare a dying franchise you try to revive to one that is on its peak like Uncharted.

[Lyall]

Sure I can, that's exactly what gaming press told me to do. Tomb Raider was back with a better main character, none of the things that made the old Tomb Raiders bad and it was supposed to be awesome.

So... what happened?

[Charismatic]

Ya'll trippin.

If Uncharted on the VITA outsold it 3 to one, the sales were utter shit.
I own a VITA and I love the damn thing but the sales of the system itself have been garbage since day one. If a system that no one owns has a game that outsells yours 3 to 1, that means very very bad things.

Sure it could be that the game wasn't good but considering it follows trends of games with female leads not selling, I can see people not wanting to fund those efforts. If this were a scientific study and not a business I'd be panning the guys since they are making a silly logical leap (at least in this case) but they have no reason to make such bets and have every right and reason to play it safe as far as making these dollar bills is concerned.

[Joyo]

A lot of profits come from preorders and early sales. If the last game was awesome its a pretty safe bet to preorder the next game but if it was shit you would probably wait and then buy it at a discount later.
Do you also think that The Last of Us sold less because they put Ellie on the front cover?

[Gokku]

A lot of profits come from preorders and early sales. If the last game was awesome its a pretty safe bet to preorder the next game but if it was shit you would probably wait and then buy it at a discount later.
Do you also think that The Last of Us sold less because they put Ellie on the front cover?

Uhh what?

The Last of Us received over 200 "Game of the Year" awards and is the most awarded game in history

You can't even compare naughty dog to the other dev.

[Lyall]

The Last of Us sold approximately six million copies before launching on the PS4 as well and is Sony-exclusive. Try again with that "sold less" comment, because it obliterated Tomb Raider across five consoles (FIVE!) platforms.

Edit, because I am dumb:

No, I don't think the cover impacted the sales.

[wipers]

I too am curious what is considered a game for women?
How are you judging this unbiased? Or what are the conditions to meet?

Please give multiple actual examples of games for Girls?

Anything that doesn't portray rape culture.

[Lyall]

Anything that doesn't portray rape culture.

Now now. I'm legitimately seeking a serious answer because when it comes to talking sexism in video games, the dialogue always seems to be centered on what gaming does wrong, not what it gets right. This leads me to think that maybe the critics don't think that ANY female in gaming has ever been done correctly. If that's true, I'd love to have an idea of what a by-females for-females lead would look like, because when you discount Zelda, Metroid, Lara and Bayonetta I'm out of ideas of sex-positive, fem-positive role models.

[wipers]

And why do you need positive role models in video games ? Is that the type of society we live in where young girls look up to video game characters ?

[Lyall]

And why do you need positive role models in video games ? Is that the type of society we live in where young girls look up to video game characters ?

Young men look up to rock stars and pro wrestlers. Who are we to judge the validity of someone else's role model? I'm not arguing against the reasoning, I want to know what, specifically, dictates a female game and female character, as approved by The Female concept.