GamerGate thread

[wipers]

I've watched her before she is smart and rational definitely not a leader of feminism.

If there is one thing feminist dislike it is other feminists telling them they don't need feminism...

[hey]

First, check this out. A retweet by the guy behind Feminist Frequency (because that is not Anita's brainchild, she is merely the posterchild to give it credibility because a cis white male talking about gender issues and equality is laughable).

https://twitter.com/adrianchm/status...439489/photo/1

The tweet says it all.

Secondly, Remember Me was an okay action game that sold, combined between PS3, Xbox360 and PC, approximately 500,000 copies. This article more or less sums up the same exact thing the other one linked does:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-protagonists

Pre-post edit: It's the same article linked from that article. Commercially, Remember Me was a bomb. It's got about a 70 on Metacritic. This was the box art.

Spoiler: show

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ver_art%29.jpg

I'm trying to find development costs and the like but am not having much success at work. Given how bold the dev was with Remember Me, going on and talking about wanting a strong female character, and how much respect it would earn them and how important and vital it was to feature a non-stereotypical female lead, it didn't amount to anything beyond integrity. While that's a big deal and I do applaud them for sticking to their guns, you can't blame anyone for not wanting to publish another "strong independent womyn who ain't need no man" video game from the folks who sold that game once, to mediocre critical acclaim and lacking a consumer interest.

As a counterpoint of sorts, I'll mention that the PSVita (a handheld console with admittedly poor sales figures) version of Uncharted outsold Remember Me 3:1, despite being exclusive to one company's handheld device. The obvious counter is that Uncharted is a franchise player that everyone knows, but Remember Me was billed as the same sort of experience from early previews.

It's silly to compare to games where the target demographic is young men. Obviously those games are going to sell more. 500k copies isn't necessarily a failure. It was no AAA game, for sure, but i wouldn't be so quick to call it a failure. Reviews are also not interesting, when most of them are made by men. It's definitely a game i think women would enjoy more than men. However, since of course most pc gamers are men, it's going to be played disproportionally by men, giving biased reviews. Although not on the same scale, because of course Remember Me can definitely be enjoyed by men (though on average, it's probably less likely), it's similar to grown men playing barbie games, and then giving it a 1/10 because it's too girly. It just doesn't make sense. It's supposed to be that way, and that's what makes it good for the target demographic.

But no, it's clearly sexist that people don't want to spend money on something historically proven to not make money. It's that sort of reasoning that turns people away from the side of modern-feminists; There's nothing wrong with saying "This does not make money, so we won't be making it." Making it out to be a huge deal because it involves a woman and therefor must be sexist is lunacy.

That's not what happened. There would not be an issue if they simply said no. But instead they said yes, if they change the gender. That's just absurd.

There are plenty of games 'made for women' and/or in the middle ground, the problem is that even games that meet that criteria do not attract much of the female market.

Women make up 50% of the entire market. They have just as much opportunity to influence it through buying power as men do.

If they all started consuming these games in massive numbers, you can bet your ass that more of them would be made - but they're not, and thus there is no logical ground to assume that female interest in video games is exclusively due to not having enough of 'their games.' Again, they're not even consuming the content directly appealing to them right now (though it is trending upward, but again is still massively behind).

Women who don't normally play games aren't going to be looking for all the latest games. They don't read game news sites to see what games might appeal to them. They don't come to game forums and discuss them. They just carry on their lives as if they didn't exist.

At this point, i feel like the only reason i look for games to play is because i was bought a lot as a kid, and played them often. I play maybe 3-5 new games a year, at best. And i pirate them all, so it's not like i'm limited by money. It is just so discouraging to play games as a woman, because most of the good ones are made specifically with the young male demographic in mind, and i just don't tend to like most of it. A big problem is that it's hard as hell to find games that i'd enjoy. Not only are there relatively few to begin with, but they don't get advertised as well, they aren't played as much, and therefore not talked about as much, and male reviewers push down review scores, making them seem worse than they are, making it easier to pass over great games. If i didn't already know there was a lot of really great games that i could enjoy, there's no way in hell i would waste my time trying to find the needle in a haystack. I am sure there are plenty of games that non-gaming women would love to death if they played them. But guess what? They're never going to. To them, the idea of playing games, other than maybe candy crush, farmville, etc would never even cross their mind. And that isn't just because women inherently don't like games. It's because the games aren't made to be liked by women.

Then every single product or service that markets and/or designs their products to appeal to the desires of a target audience that just happens to be mostly X gender/race/preference is now sexist/racist/homophobic.

No, this is perfectly fine. The problem comes up when the target demographic of 98% of the market is white/cis/het males, and anyone trying to make a game with a different audience in mind is pushed to the side and not even given a chance.

Can you please define "Games for women" please? I wasn't aware that some games are specifically for one gender or the other. Are you implying that the Mario Bros. franchise or the Legend of Zelda are for men because they star men? That Pokemon is for boys because they originally featured only playable males?

A game where the target demographic is women. This has nothing to do with the gender of the main character, and i've already said. Again, for example, dating sims featuring gay male characters have a female target demographic, sometimes without having a single female character in the entire game. I'm not sure why some of you insist on link the gender of the main character to the intended target audience's gender. Sometimes gender is selected specifically to appeal to a certain demographic more (for example: publishers wanting to change remember me/life is strange's main characters to male, so more male people would buy it), sometimes the main character's gender is specifically chosen to be the opposite of the target audience, and sometimes the target audience is everyone, regardless of gender. The three you listed are all fairly gender neutral games, except zelda, which probably leans a bit more towards males. This is no different than books or movies (see: chick flicks) being written for specific groups. You won't find too many men buying 50 shades of gray, just like you won't find too many women buying call of duty. And there's a reason for that.

Clearly they need to have fancy gem or candy swapping functionality if they're meant for women!

I think that's part of the problem. Games are games. They may be made to capture a certain audience, but in the end, anyone can play them. Whether or not the enjoy them is another point all together.

No, the entire point is whether or not they would enjoy them. No one is discussing whether or not women are capable of playing games.

I too am curious what is considered a game for women?
How are you judging this unbiased? Or what are the conditions to meet?

Same way as every other type of media.

Please give multiple actual examples of games for Girls?

Atelier series, and every otome game ever. It's difficult to give specific examples, outside of atelier, because they basically don't exist within the mainstream. The best you can usually hope for is gender neutral games, or the occasional games like Remember Me, that lean towards a female audience, but not too heavily that men don't still enjoy it (and surprise: those usually don't sell too well, so don't get the budget and skilled devs that other games do).

Now now. I'm legitimately seeking a serious answer because when it comes to talking sexism in video games, the dialogue always seems to be centered on what gaming does wrong, not what it gets right. This leads me to think that maybe the critics don't think that ANY female in gaming has ever been done correctly. If that's true, I'd love to have an idea of what a by-females for-females lead would look like, because when you discount Zelda, Metroid, Lara and Bayonetta I'm out of ideas of sex-positive, fem-positive role models.

Oh gosh, no, plenty of games are done right, but they are a small minority. Mentioned it before, but Atelier series is a very good example.

[thetruepandagod]

Same way as every other type of media.

And this means what? I am also wanting you to comment on LoL's popularity among women when it was not specifically marketed towards them at all.

[wipers]

I think hey is referring to other types of media such as books movies etc. aimed towards women.

[Lyall]

While I appreciate you taking the time to write that all out, it's hilariously sexist to imply that Remember Me got middling review scores because of men and not at all to do with the game itself.

Remember Me has received mixed to positive reviews. Aggregating review websites GameRankings and Metacritic gave the PlayStation 3 version 73.33% and 72/100[24][27] the Xbox 360 version 68.73% and 70/100[25][28] and the PC version 67.06% and 65/100.[26][29] General praise was given for the world design, the ambition of the story and the Memory Remix segments, with the main criticisms being laid against other aspects of the story, weak platforming, poor design choices and formulaic combat.

Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell liked the Remix segments, the general design, but said the later segments flagged, the combat was repetitive and the writing weak.He finished by saying: "The result is a game that a small number of people will rightly love and cherish, but overall it's an uneven experience - one that feels like it knows what it wants to be, but has resigned itself to existing in a world where it can't quite get away with it".[31]

GameSpot's Kevin VanOrd found Nilin a good protagonist, while enjoying the Remix segments, world design, and combat. The pieces he found lacking were the story, which didn't really live up to its premise, a restrictive world design and troublesome camera.[33]

Ryan Taljonick of GamesRadar enjoyed the setting, customizable combos and Remix segments, but found the game to be overly linear, the combat unwieldy and several pieces of the dialogue sub-par.[34]

Justin Speer of GameTrailers praised the scope of the world and its story, the platforming elements and the Remix segments, though he said they were "underdeveloped and underutilized". On the downside, the story and dialogue were often lacking, the combat was problematic, some aspects of the graphics and controls annoying or comical, and progress between savepoints was wiped away if the character died. He stated "It's up to you to decide if your mind has room to hold such a curious oddity".[35]

Daniel Krupa of IGN enjoyed the premise of the game, the general setting, the ambitious story and Memory Remix segments, but found the combat unappealing, the platforming weak, and the gameplay simplistic and repetitive. He finished: "Remember Me is a likeable, even admirable game that tells a deeply personal story in a thoughtfully-fashioned world populated by richly detailed character models. But ultimately, it failed to challenge or excite me as a game, as all of its best ideas are confined to its overarching fiction rather than its gameplay".[36]

The Official PlayStation Magazine review criticized the combat, platforming and poor storytelling, but praised the world design and general atmosphere of the game.[38]

If your argument now becomes "Well those are things men enjoy instead of women, a woman wouldn't have cared as much about the combat" you are getting warmer to what makes most of the people who play video games play them.

This steers close to attacking the person and not their argument, which I hate doing because that's not how you discuss or debate things, but did you pirate Remember Me? Because if so... I've got some bad news for you.

[thetruepandagod]

I think hey is referring to other types of media such as books movies etc. aimed towards women.

Is it wrong of me to enjoy watching the notebook and screaming lines from it while drunk?

Spoiler: show

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/upload...tebook-Gif.gif

[wipers]

Is it wrong of me to enjoy watching the notebook and screaming lines from it while drunk downtown?

No I quote "You had me at hello" out of context all the time from Jerry Maguire. And that might be the cheesiest pick up line of all time.

This goes back to my (and Panda's I think) argument of not making games/movies geared towards a female or male audience. (stereotyping) If the story is compelling characters are interesting it will have universal appeal.

The Last of Us had a very strong female character and it was met with universal praise by men and women a like.

(it is personally one of my favorite games I've ever played that and Heavy Rain)

[Lyall]

The Last of Us had a very strong female character and it was met with universal praise by men and women a like.

(it is personally one of my favorite games I've ever played that and Heavy Rain)

See, I find that kind of amazing because Ellie is put into the Damsel role almost immediately. Joel is certainly the star of the show and Ellie is the object to be protected, and it was so hard to take anyone serious when they levied these criticisms back when it came out. It's like people took Sark's intent as gospel and tried to one-up her.

[wipers]

Well the DLC is just Ellie in The Last of Us remastered edition. (Left behind) She plays the hero to help out Joel. And through various parts of the game.

[Joyo]

What are you implying? That the marketing budget should reflect something other than the sales projections? That all these companies would rather continue to oppress women than make money? That they're purposefully ignoring data/hidden markets/strategies that could make them more money, just to keep the women down? Or that this is some hidden, cash-cow that no company has sought to even try to capture?

This all comes back to the same exact thing that started this debate - seeking that which maximizes profits.

And this is exactly the opportunity that is available for a game 'targeted to women', but it has never happened. There is no 'hit game' that women flocked to in droves (note: not talking about apps) to provide evidence to motivate publishers to consider that market over its current target.

Until that happens, it really isn't going to change. You're asking a for-profit industry to ignore their target market.

Well if you compare sales numbers of games with male and female leads you shouldnt ignore other data like budget available to them. Doing that and saying female lead = less sales is simply wrong. Or are there more studies that go more into detail about this?
If you refuse to publish a game simply because of the main characters gender (tbh this is probably not really the case and theres lots of other reasons why the game was refused) then you have someone who is either sexist or stupid making decisions imo.

Having a female lead does not mean ignoring your target audience. Tomb Raider has the same target audience as Uncharted imo and i dont think Bayonetta is female just to get more women into gaming.

That said expanding your user base as much as possible and aiming for different markets isnt usually a bad thing for companies to do and stay profitable in the future. This involves taking risks.

There's actually a good amount of studies that go along the lines of "gamers dont care what gender the main character is" as they usually just project themselves in the role. The only ones who care about this are those hyper genderist folk (feminist or otherwise) who want to make everything an issue on gender lines. A.K.A people who don't actually play games.

I would love to see some data on this. I'm sure there are some people who would not play a game because it has a female lead but theres also others who would play it only because it does. The percentage is most likely really small.

[NynJa]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought women get upset at the notion of "made for women"?

[BaneTheBrawler]

It is just so discouraging to play games as an adult, because most of the good ones are made specifically with the young male demographic in mind, and i just don't tend to like most of it.

ftfy. i wish i were kidding. there's a reason the only console games ive bought recently have been multiplayer titles my friends also bought, and that the vast majority of my active (Installed) steam library are relatively unknown games, niche titles/genres, sub-AAA games etc. Like easily half my installed games are strategy/RTS sims, the rest are weird niches like FTL and KSP. Diablo 3, Shaow of Mordor, and Borderlands 2 and Pre Sequel are the closest I've got to recent AAA titles.

Young people have the disposable income and the lack of taste to buy new games all the time, and boys are for whatever reason more likely to do so than girls. Therefore all the AAA titles are designed with them in mind. And they're literally juvenile.

Anyway, sorry. Just wanted to point that out. You should try Dark Souls, though, if you haven't. Great game. Don't look shit up on Wikis until your second playthrough at the earliest.

[Karbuncle]

The new Zelda iteration in Hyrule Warriors seemed to be a good balance, at least in my eyes, of what I think some folks are looking for in a strong female lead. She's clothed, she fights for herself, and she's not overly sexual. Unless I'm missing something, I think she's a positive version.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the whole point of playing a video game escaping reality ? Why would I want to relate to a video game character ?

Granted some video games are more like movies Heavy Rain The Last of Us but most of the characters are far from believable.

To think the developers think about whether they portray positive role models or not I'm afraid I got some bad news for you...

Young men look up to rock stars and pro wrestlers. Who are we to judge the validity of someone else's role model? I'm not arguing against the reasoning, I want to know what, specifically, dictates a female game and female character, as approved by The Female concept.

I'm going to quote just a few posts here that all fall along the same general subject of "representation of (X) in games", and link a previous post again:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/123...66#post6323366

Which is a video on a study around if gamers "care" about the representation of their main character, their gender, race, sexuality, etc.

While I don't doubt someone out there might look up to Samus, i think that this video and study shows at least beyond most peoples reasonable doubt that "equal representation" and such in games is something no gamer cares about or is asking for. When chosing a character in street fighter or LoL, people will chose based on in-game advantages, not their sexual orientation or gender/color. Often times the character is either just a thing they control and they project themselves into the game... or they'll chose one that has an advantage like my LoL/SF example. In character creation games... well, you'll have to watch the video.

The research talked about in that video is coming from a person, if I understand correctly, made another article/research that anti-GG's bring up often. So its not like its even coming from a Pro-GG.

Instead of focusing on men vs women characters etc I rather people(developers) just focus on making good games. (looking at you endless sequels and re makes)

And this is the best choice. Make the game you want to make as best you can. Which is really the best answer. Nobody but gender politics care about these kinds of things in games, and games don't need to suffer for it.

also part 2 of GWW came out

She also covers the same thing my video covers... she covers this at around 6:00

Edit: Also, seriously, she covers everything I could ask for.

[Karbuncle]

(if it isn't clear Wipers I'm not claiming these are your views I'm more just using your point to jump to another point!)

I think hey is referring to other types of media such as books movies etc. aimed towards women.

So the covers of games should include shirtless sexy men with awesome Abs rocking low-hanging bluejeans, with game titles like "The Lust for Banana" instead of "Donkey Kong"? Or do we need more Romantic Comedy video games featuring Jennifer Aniston?

I hope the point I'm making here is that its more sexist to insist that all men and all women want different things when they play video games, than anything the original company that sparked this actually did. Which is why I'm confused Hey doesn't see the irony of splitting games down a gender line of what is and isn't for women.

The female gamers I know, which is a small sample size I admit, play many of the same games I do. They like Minecraft, they like Pokemon, they like Saints Row... they played WoW, i played FFXI/FFXIV... they enjoy the same general games as I do. I happen to enjoy some FPS's, some of them enjoyed Halo, some didn't... but a lot of my male gamer friends felt the exact same way, usually disliking a genre of games based on the gameplay, not because of the main character not being an LGBT Approved Trisexual Xenomorph....

So while we won't agree on everything, I'd say that has as much to do with Gender as it does the fact we're different people, and in all cases of my experience i can think of.. they chose not to play the game because of its genre, not its main character or gender representation.

[Xantavia]

I feel developers really can't win anymore no matter what. Complaints if they don't have a female lead. And if they do, then they are told it was made to have an agenda or a token female lead and they didn't really mean it. Add that to the complaints of violence against women cause the main character is getting beaten up, which would be perfectly acceptable if the lead is a guy.

That aside, I would check this out because I really enjoyed Remember Me. Never even heard of it until it was free on PS+, but I haven't deleted it yet since I know I'll play it again in the future.

[wipers]

I feel developers really can't win anymore no matter what. Complaints if they don't have a female lead. And if they do, then they are told it was made to have an agenda or a token female lead and they didn't really mean it. Add that to the complaints of violence against women cause the main character is getting beaten up, which would be perfectly acceptable if the lead is a guy.

That aside, I would check this out because I really enjoyed Remember Me. Never even heard of it until it was free on PS+, but I haven't deleted it yet since I know I'll play it again in the future.

When your target audience is people that buy COD every year how could you win ?

[wipers]

Laugh if you want but that is gamer culture bunch of nerds sitting around playing COD.

[thetruepandagod]

The lack of diversity in your video is triggering me.

[hey]

While I appreciate you taking the time to write that all out, it's hilariously sexist to imply that Remember Me got middling review scores because of men and not at all to do with the game itself.

I'm not saying the game was perfect, but yes, i do believe that women would, on average, rate it higher than men.

If your argument now becomes "Well those are things men enjoy instead of women, a woman wouldn't have cared as much about the combat" you are getting warmer to what makes most of the people who play video games play them.

I think men and women generally tend to put different weights on different things. Indeed, it is very common for people to play games based solely on the gameplay, being able to play, and replay the same game thousands of hours for that alone, not caring about about any story, or if there even is any. This is why games like call of duty, farmville, words with friends, etc etc are so popular. You can't generalize what "most people" play games for to the rest though, because the majority of gamers, at least pc/console gamers are, in many ways, extremely different from others.

This steers close to attacking the person and not their argument, which I hate doing because that's not how you discuss or debate things, but did you pirate Remember Me? Because if so... I've got some bad news for you.

I don't know how this is relevant to anything, but i haven't paid for a game in a long time, because just about every cent i get goes towards my survival.

Is it wrong of me to enjoy watching the notebook and screaming lines from it while drunk?

No, but don't be surprised when not many men like it.

I would love to see some data on this. I'm sure there are some people who would not play a game because it has a female lead but theres also others who would play it only because it does. The percentage is most likely really small.

As always, people love their absolutes. I am sure there are extremely few people who would make a decision either way based exclusively on the gender of a character. But it can definitely influence people. Particularly, people who aren't really sure if they want to give a game a chance, might be pushed just over the fence one way or the other based on little things like that. They may not even be conscious of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has no effect.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought women get upset at the notion of "made for women"?

Huh? Since when? I think it's pretty well established that men and women generally have different tastes.

ftfy. i wish i were kidding. there's a reason the only console games ive bought recently have been multiplayer titles my friends also bought, and that the vast majority of my active (Installed) steam library are relatively unknown games, niche titles/genres, sub-AAA games etc. Like easily half my installed games are strategy/RTS sims, the rest are weird niches like FTL and KSP. Diablo 3, Shaow of Mordor, and Borderlands 2 and Pre Sequel are the closest I've got to recent AAA titles.

Young people have the disposable income and the lack of taste to buy new games all the time, and boys are for whatever reason more likely to do so than girls. Therefore all the AAA titles are designed with them in mind. And they're literally juvenile.

Anyway, sorry. Just wanted to point that out. You should try Dark Souls, though, if you haven't. Great game. Don't look shit up on Wikis until your second playthrough at the earliest.

Well, yes, that's true, but it's even worse for women.

While I don't doubt someone out there might look up to Samus, i think that this video and study shows at least beyond most peoples reasonable doubt that "equal representation" and such in games is something no gamer cares about or is asking for. When chosing a character in street fighter or LoL, people will chose based on in-game advantages, not their sexual orientation or gender/color. Often times the character is either just a thing they control and they project themselves into the game... or they'll chose one that has an advantage like my LoL/SF example. In character creation games... well, you'll have to watch the video.

The gender of a character in a fighting game, or moba is clearly irrelevant. They could just all be dittos from pokemon, and it would change nothing. The gender isn't important in any way at all. The same is often true in some games where you can pick the gender of the character, because it is written in such a way that everything makes sense regardless of which gender you choose. For more story driven games, where the gender is predetermined, such as remember me, or most final fantasy games, and such, they can give them an appropriate personality based on the gender, and it factors into who they are.

(if it isn't clear Wipers I'm not claiming these are your views I'm more just using your point to jump to another point!)



So the covers of games should include shirtless sexy men with awesome Abs rocking low-hanging bluejeans, with game titles like "The Lust for Banana" instead of "Donkey Kong"? Or do we need more Romantic Comedy video games featuring Jennifer Aniston?

I hope the point I'm making here is that its more sexist to insist that all men and all women want different things when they play video games, than anything the original company that sparked this actually did. Which is why I'm confused Hey doesn't see the irony of splitting games down a gender line of what is and isn't for women.

The female gamers I know, which is a small sample size I admit, play many of the same games I do. They like Minecraft, they like Pokemon, they like Saints Row... they played WoW, i played FFXI/FFXIV... they enjoy the same general games as I do. I happen to enjoy some FPS's, some of them enjoyed Halo, some didn't... but a lot of my male gamer friends felt the exact same way, usually disliking a genre of games based on the gameplay, not because of the main character not being an LGBT Approved Trisexual Xenomorph....

So while we won't agree on everything, I'd say that has as much to do with Gender as it does the fact we're different people, and in all cases of my experience i can think of.. they chose not to play the game because of its genre, not its main character or gender representation.

It's not a line with games only men can possibly like on one side, and games that only women can possibly like on the other. It's a spectrum, where on one end, almost only men will enjoy them (for example, call of duty), and on the other, mostly women will like them (for example, otome games). There will always be exceptions, because everyone is different, and some games might appeal to either gender more or less, or might even appeal to either equally. So, for example, call of duty, halo, etc appeal mostly to men, final fantasy games usually appeal to men a bit more than women, but are definitely made to also appeal strongly to women, games like mario party appeal equally to either gender, games like remember me appeal slightly more to women than men, and atelier appeals much more to women than men.


And everyone who keeps saying people don't choose a game based on the gender of the main character, you're missing the entire point.

[wipers]

The lack of diversity in your video is triggering me.

I'm sure women play COD but won't publicly admit it.