Pope @ world. "God isn't magic"

[Andalusian girls]

Selfish by definition implies prioritizing one's own desire over that of others.

over a nonexistent zygote's?

[BaneTheBrawler]

We're getting into pretty pants-on-head semantics bullshit here. Move on, please.

[Galkaeater]

Is it ok to force someone to be alive?

[RKenshin]

Move on from the "is having/not having kids selfish?" topic or the nitty gritty on what's defined as selfish? I'm interested in the discussion of the former (not sure if it deserves it's own topic or where it would go).

But, gotta agree with andalusian... have trouble seeing a non-action as selfish, regardless of the reason. Particularly if it's not necessary to the advancement/benefit of society as a whole right now. I could see and understand the argument if repopulation was some sort of a priority or issue (ala zombie apocalypse, nuclear winter, japan), but so long as it isn't it shouldn't matter what the reason may be (if any) you choose one over the other.... anymore than it would matter why you chose not to be a doctor.

Spending your time, energy, money etc on the welfare and happiness of another is a pretty far stretch to be defined as "selfish".

Resources have to be spent regardless of your reason for having kids, and there are definitely selfish reasons. Many people get pets for selfish reasons, and the fact pets need time, money, etc doesn't change that.

A selfishly motivated goal that requires effort/time/resources along the way doesn't make it not selfish in itself.

[archibaldcrane]

If you see a man drowning who you could easily save but don't want to take 5 minutes out of your day to do so, I'd call that selfish.

There's millions of similar scenarios where "lack of action" can easily be considered selfish.

[RKenshin]

In your example, lack of action involves a direct negative cost/consequence to someone else. The situation here (to have kids or not) is not costing anyone else (or really even society as a whole) anything.

I get your point though, and perhaps lack of action by itself isn't a strong point... but combining it with something that doesn't effect anyone else is tougher. I can't think of anything off my head.

Per that line of thinking, lack of action in chosing not to donate money towards the needy could be selfish. But, chosing not to donate money towards a fund for the wealthy (or people that clearly don't need it), is a tougher sell to call selfish - regardless of why you chose not to.

[archibaldcrane]

It's a little interesting that people decry anti-vaxxers for piggybacking off herd immunity without pitching in (which is selfish), but when it comes to keeping the human race going, it's all "why should that be my responsibility? Other people have it covered!"

Yes, I'm just sport-fucking y'all a little with this thought exercise, but it's only because of how sensitive people are about the concept of selfishness.

[Abandon]

I'm not having kids, but that's because my brother and sister have 8 between them, our bloodline is good. lol

[RKenshin]

It's a little interesting that people decry anti-vaxxers for piggybacking off herd immunity without pitching in (which is selfish), but when it comes to keeping the human race going, it's all "why should that be my responsibility? Other people have it covered!"

Yes, I'm just sport-fucking y'all a little with this thought exercise, but it's only because of how sensitive people are about the concept of selfishness.

But see, you reference "keeping the human race going" as if there's an active threat or cause for concern here, when there isn't.

In fact, you could probably argue that having kids does more to threaten "keeping the human race going" right now than not having them. Our resources and sustainability are in far more danger than our repopulation figures.

I know you're mostly playing devil's advocate, but I feel like this whole idea of birthing children 'just being one of those things you gotta do' without much further thought to it is way more harmful than good (not that you're advocating it, but the mindset of 'gotta keep the race going, its selfish to not have kids, etc' does encourage it).

[BaneTheBrawler]

Move on from the "is having/not having kids selfish?" topic or the nitty gritty on what's defined as selfish?

The latter especially, but both.

Selfishness is subjective so we are inevitably going to have an infinite chain of "yuh huh" "nuh uh"

As long as you can avoid that, you're fine discussing the former. If you find yourself repeating the same argument (even if you find a new format for it), just stop.