Rogue/Ninja Discussion

[Taint]

so looks like they'll be doing some adjustments to ninja to make it do less damage?

according to the live letter anyway

can't access google docs at work (the translation) to see if there were specifics, but any thoughts on what could possibly be changed without making it too crappy? just boring flat potency loss? or was there mention of increased tp cost on skills or something (fuzzy memory from waking up lol)

Sounds like just a TP increase for some moves. They said it wouldn't impact the rotation.

NIN is very OP but I hope its a very small increase in TP.

[Carraway]

Q3: Ninja is able to silence, stun, and I feel like their DPS output is a bit too high. Do you have any plans to make adjustments to they are balanced with other jobs?

A3: With the mudra combinations, ninja is a job where it’s tricky to deal damage, and we’ve set their DPS to be somewhat higher than other jobs. However, players have really been pushing ninja to the limit, and while it’s only by a slight percentage, DPS is being output a bit higher than anticipated. Due to this, in order to make their DPS output similar to other jobs, we will be making adjustments to DPS and the TP costs of certain actions, while ensuring that the current rotation is not destroyed.

I would predict something like -10 potency/+10 TP on Aeolian/Dancing/Shadow, -5 potency on Jugulate.

[Kaisha]

I wouldn't be surprised if their Kiss got knocked down 5%. Would be one of the easier adjustments that affects overall DPS output.

[kisada]

i honestly wouldn't care so much about the nerfs if the mudra lag was fixed. but it doesn't sound like they have a clue about what to do so it's like a "yeah this is kind of awkward" situation.

[Niiro]

From the live letter thread, I liked it:

"We made something on MNK's level. But instead of buffing DRG up to that level, let's nerf NIN down to DRG's level."

Never change, SE.

[Kiarax]

i honestly wouldn't care so much about the nerfs if the mudra lag was fixed. but it doesn't sound like they have a clue about what to do so it's like a "yeah this is kind of awkward" situation.

Please look forward to VPN/tunneling services on the Mog Station coming 2015.

[Deadgye]

Yeah I'm not really outperforming our monk. Nin isn't as OP as people think it is. I'd be fine with an increase in +10 tp cost on AE/DE/Shadow I guess, considering the only reason I run low on tp is because I'm too busy to remember to invig right away. A potency nerf would be silly though.

If they do any nerfs before fixing mudras though, fuck them. It shouldn't be easier to do cast mudras while R0, like what?

[Arthars]

NIN dps fix is not because it was too OP

its because it was easier to play without maintaining buffs like grease lightning or heavy thrust

free perma buffs in the form of vemons + no directional combos at all makes a melee DPS a hell lot easier to play

SE was expecting mudras to be enough "problems" for us so they made perma buffs on for nin, and no directional combos

DPS wise, MNK is a lil higher tbh but NIN does need a small "nerf" to TP consumption. Maybe the directional requirement for dancing edge is finally coming? haha

[Kaisha]

i honestly wouldn't care so much about the nerfs if the mudra lag was fixed. but it doesn't sound like they have a clue about what to do so it's like a "yeah this is kind of awkward" situation.

Ditch penalty for using skills during mudra buff, and let you weave in mudra combos (with extended timer than the current) before the cooldown to use the ninjutsu is up.

Would also act as a slight DPS boost not losing a GCD getting the mudra combo ready though.

[Obsidian]

From the live letter thread, I liked it:

But that's not really what they've done. Someone's just mad they aren't going to be able to AFK on the boss's ass and top the parse anymore.

[Niiro]

NIN dps fix is not because it was too OP

its because it was easier to play without maintaining buffs like grease lightning or heavy thrust

free perma buffs in the form of vemons + no directional combos at all makes a melee DPS a hell lot easier to play

SE was expecting mudras to be enough "problems" for us so they made perma buffs on for nin, and no directional combos

DPS wise, MNK is a lil higher tbh but NIN does need a small "nerf" to TP consumption. Maybe the directional requirement for dancing edge is finally coming? haha

The problem is SE thinking that directional requirements and the like make for fun, or that they're even a good idea in the first place given the nature of the combat system (they're not).

Shit is not and never will be fun because it is often out of your control because of mob and tank behavior.

NIN's complex "rotation" (it's not really a by-the-book rotation in the sense of MNK or even DRG) is entirely dependent on the player's awareness of their buffs, enfeebs, and cooldowns and lining them all up for the greatest effect.

The important distinction is that these things are all dependent on and within the player's control and awareness, not random shit that they can't help.

Despite NIN having no directional combos it's still much "harder" to play than MNK or DRG in the sense that it requires far more attention and coordination. It's only "easier" in the sense that the only thing that can fuck you up is you, not the mob or the tank.

[SamanosukeShiva]

couple pages late, but I think I found an opener rotation on T12 that I'm happy with. It's basically all 4 DPS burn bennu asap then switch to boss.

I start with

<Phoenix> Spinning Edge > IR+B4B Shadow Fang+Jugulate > Dex pots Mutilate > Switch to Bennu
<Bennu> Suiton > 1+Mug 23 aeolian edge rotation > switch to Phoenix
<Phoenix> Spinning Slash >Trick attack > Raiton > Shadow Fang

by doing this I still able to fit in TA+Raiton+Shadow Fang with B4B and Pots up. and TA debuff on fulltime when all 4 DPS are on Phoenix.

[StUfF]

DPS wise, MNK is a lil higher tbh but NIN does need a small "nerf" to TP consumption. Maybe the directional requirement for dancing edge is finally coming? haha

Is this actually true? Given Goad + Trick attack it was my impression that NIN contributed more raid dps than MNK but I've never actually played with geared NIN or seen too many parses to say anything conclusive about their dps.

[SamanosukeShiva]

raw dps on long fights mnk still wins even solo DK MNK

[Deadgye]

Is this actually true? Given Goad + Trick attack it was my impression that NIN contributed more raid dps than MNK but I've never actually played with geared NIN or seen too many parses to say anything conclusive about their dps.

It's about the same, +/- a bit, in my experience. We do of course contribute in a way that's hard to measure with TA/Goad/DE. Although mnk does something similar with mantra/dragon kick.

But anyway, people saying nin is easymode because it doesn't have positions are crazy. Ignoring that sata is a positional, dragoon for example only has 2 positionals. I wasn't exactly a master drg when I used it for shits and giggles, but I have to concentrate much harder with ninja. Especially if I'm attempting to check if storm's eye is up.

It's not hard to be a mediocre ninja who outputs acceptable dps, but it's quite hard to maximize your potential. If I mess up a single mudra my dps drops by like 20 easily.

[Neon_Sea]

IDK maybe it's just me but having any meaningful positional to upkeep makes a class way less faceroll. Not sure what it is but with smn/blm/nin/brd I can just zone out and do my max damage but any form of positional force you to pay attention if you want to max damage.

[Deadgye]

If I zone out while playing nin I run into situations like mutilate falling off after I just pressed 1 for a 123 combo, but shadowfang will fall off if I don't put it back on after the 123, which means I just spent 5 gcds with multiate not up. Or something like I just spent 20s with dancing edge not up because I was so busy keeping everything else up/on cooldown/dodging that I didn't even notice the war tank swapped into MT.

And if you have any sort of lag at all: making sure mudras go off in the right order, and that the ninjutsu actually goes off, is infinitely more annoying than positionals in endgame fights. It is absolutely infuriating to see the raiton or suiton animation start, then stop half way and another move goes off turning it into a bunny.

[Kipling]

couple pages late, but I think I found an opener rotation on T12 that I'm happy with. It's basically all 4 DPS burn bennu asap then switch to boss.

I start with

<Phoenix> Spinning Edge > IR+B4B Shadow Fang+Jugulate > Dex pots Mutilate > Switch to Bennu
<Bennu> Suiton > 1+Mug 23 aeolian edge rotation > switch to Phoenix
<Phoenix> Spinning Slash >Trick attack > Raiton > Shadow Fang

by doing this I still able to fit in TA+Raiton+Shadow Fang with B4B and Pots up. and TA debuff on fulltime when all 4 DPS are on Phoenix.

That's interesting. We have our NIN and DRG never leave Phoenix. We just make the BRD and BLM kill Bennu.

[Ratatapa]

Perfect dodge op : works on landslide and blighted bouquet will probably work on a lot of work mechanics like that

[Niiro]

Nothing manawall couldn't already do but better (and on the same recast).