Rogue/Ninja Discussion

[Sho]

I don't think directional requirements are so much a flaw rather than it's better for MNK than DRG. There is also the oversight of them creating bosses that don't really take into account directional melee (like Leviathan initially). NIN was intentionally not given directionals because of Ninjutsu.

I also agree that them claiming lag is pretty dumb and just a cop out, however.

[kisada]

Saying that lag fucking up ninjutsu was an intended balancing effect is a new and exciting kind of retarded.

^

[Seravi Edalborez]

I'm trying to understand why you would ever use SA "because it takes too long for me to get to rear", instead of either holding the Suiton buff for a GCD or two while you reposition for TA or just using Raiton, skipping to Suiton on next jutsu.

In Coil.

[Spider-Dan]

Well, you can say "ninjutsu failure due to lag" or you can say "slow down and confirm your ninjutsu sequences." It's the same thing.

If you don't believe that lag/speed is the drawback, I guess you're saying that pushing 123 312 231 is, by itself, supposed to be equivalent to maintaining directionals?
How often would you mess up ninjutsu if it were client-side? If the answer is "never," then that's not really a trade-off (compared to directionals) at all.

[LinktheDeme]

I'm trying to understand why you would ever use SA "because it takes too long for me to get to rear", instead of either holding the Suiton buff for a GCD or two while you reposition for TA or just using Raiton, skipping to Suiton on next jutsu.

Kraken

[Seravi Edalborez]

Kraken doesn't have a rear to begin with and it's just a dungeon boss. I was meaning Coil specifically.

[Niiro]

Only time I can think of is in T11 when I cast Suiton and he (she? name sounds more she to me) turned to face us for nerve cloud, had to use SA or Suiton would have worn by the time she was done with all 3.

That being said I should have just waited until after Nerve to try and TA, so it's not even a good reason.

[SamanosukeShiva]

I've never feel the need to SA on FCOB so far, even on T11 nerve gas, I can TA while I dodge w/ tethers, the whole nerve gas sequence doesnt last more than 10 sec either. I mean it's still a possibility, but you just have to be real unlucky to have lined up your TA on every nerve gas and on every single one of those occasion you just happen to do suiton before nerve gas. Only place where I legit used SA is on golem phase t9, cause they die too damn fast.

[Deadgye]

Client-side means not server-side. Trusting the client to send you a valid string of commands opens you up to all sorts of packet-related shenanigans. What you said made no sense, which is why I did not understand it.

Like I said, there's different types and different ways of validation. There is no reason to force which ninjutsu you can use to be determined server side, instead of client side, because when the server can still perform the validation when you USE the ninjutsu. Literally no loss of security, and it removes one of the 2 mudra/ninjutsu problems.

[StUfF]

This is similar to early day WoW - what happens when you use a spell/ability the client waits for a response to confirm the spell went off. Your client ends up waiting for confirmation pushing into your gcd/cd before you can cast your next spell or just delaying all your spells.
FFXIV kind of worked around this by animation locks which seem to be entirely client side,spell/ability queuing and generally slower gameplay (longer gcd), but now with Mudra's abilities with very little animation lock and very short gcds you are running into this problem where the client is waiting for confirmation even though you should be able to use your next ability.

WoW "fixed" this by removing the need for the client to wait for a confirmation/validation, everything was client side validated totally locally and if it failed the server validation it would just correct your local client after the fact (i.e. you were stunned/silenced according to server side but on your client you had not been stunned due to the delay between you/the client, your ability cd with go back off cd). This played really smooth and while weird things sometimes happened - overall it was a better experience. At least this is what I remember - I remember alot of stopcasting - where you would cancel your cast in the last x ms depending on your ping so you could start casting your next spell. The stop command would work instantly locally but by the time the stop command hit the server the cast had finished and the stop would be invalid (your spell still went off even though you cancelled it locally), the new cast would arrive after your cast finished so your 2nd cast would be valid and working - this was necessary because of a lack of spell queining in WoW.

[Obsidian]

Like I said, there's different types and different ways of validation. There is no reason to force which ninjutsu you can use to be determined server side, instead of client side, because when the server can still perform the validation when you USE the ninjutsu. Literally no loss of security, and it removes one of the 2 mudra/ninjutsu problems.

I don't know how you want the server to dictate when you can use a Ninjutsu without knowing what mudra you used before it.

[Deadgye]

I don't know how you want the server to dictate when you can use a Ninjutsu without knowing what mudra you used before it.

First off, right now, the server currently dictates what ninjutsu you can use. I said this should be client side. I don't want to even bother explaining network communication or security to you if you can't even read.

[Obsidian]

And I said letting the client dictate to the server what mudras you used opens you up to a lot of potential abuse, so it seems neither of us is great at reading. I know enough about communication protocols to know that any data "validated" by a client is entirely untrustworthy. So I'd like you, please, to explain your plans to allow client-side mudras while avoiding susceptibility to packet injection or latency abuse and without significantly increasing network traffic to servers that already cannot hold themselves together.

Here's some randomly bolded text to attempt to make it look like I know what I'm talking about.

[Deadgye]

It's like talking to a brick wall. Come back when you've gotten your GED.

If anybody else couldn't follow what I said, I'll go through it again more simply for them so they can understand it. I'm not wasting my time with you.

[Obsidian]

Sounds like "I was talking out of my ass," to me. Cool story.

[Spider-Dan]

And I said letting the client dictate to the server what mudras you used opens you up to a lot of potential abuse

What abuse does this open up?

[Deadgye]

Don't feed the retard. It doesn't, especially if the server is still validating the ninjutsu.

[Kaisha]

Don't feed the retard. It doesn't, especially if the server is still validating the ninjutsu.

Validate what? If you make it client side then the server has to trust the client. Crafty folks would then just inject packets that said they used XYZ combo, and the server would accept it because of lag compensation, otherwise you'd still get the skill rollback bullshit that's prevalent currently.

What abuse does this open up?

Instant mudras for more dps.



On an actually Ninja note, anyone know what causes Shukuchi to just send you flying in the opposite direction you tell it to place you at?

[Niiro]

Never heard of that happening, sounds like someone hitting their flip camera button at a bad time.

Or possibly using it while locked onto another target and getting weird results.

[Kaisha]

Never heard of that happening, sounds like someone hitting their flip camera button at a bad time.

Or possibly using it while locked onto another target and getting weird results.

It happens to the NIN in our group like the spoilered T13 vid below shows off. You click for the ground placement, then the game throws the camera out of whack and whoops right into the deathwall you go.

Spoiler: show